# Know what? FUCK your thoughts and prayers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299 "2016-06-13T23:25:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/281 "2016-06-19T03:01:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That from a guy who’s actively opposed to saving lives if it means threatening his precious. > > I take sane people seriously. Not you. So this is what it feels like to be ignored by someone who is ignored by everyone else. Being liberal is usually enough to get you the benefit of the doubt on this board but you chased away all doubt a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/282 "2016-06-19T03:07:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t have a problem with universal background checks. I have a problem with using the watch list to deny constitutional rights without due process. I notice they aren’t pursing an assault weapons ban. You notice right because the last time it was proposed the assault weapons bill was soundly defeated. And while a few Democrats did vote against it, once again the Republicans were the ones that voted against it and many other proposals. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/283 "2016-06-19T15:15:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You forgot to call him evil. He isn’t. Just cowardly. The evil ones are those who literally cannot understand Thou Shalt Not Kill. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/284 "2016-06-19T16:55:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He isn’t. Just cowardly. The evil ones are those who literally cannot understand Thou Shalt Not Kill. Never killing? How can you win a war? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/285 "2016-06-19T17:01:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Never killing? How can you win a war? [What an excellent question.](http://4closurefraud.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Not-to-play.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/286 "2016-06-20T02:58:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You refuse to trade off anything at all, don’t you? Far too much freedom has already been lost. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As long as you create a danger for me, then yes, you are. I don’t create a danger for you. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The worldview that life is precious. Yes indeed. And that’s how law and civilization _work_. Life is precious, that’s why people should be free to live as they see fit, not dictated to by sanctimonious idiots like you. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/287 "2016-06-20T03:02:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Ironically, the Orlando shooter could have made the same argument last Friday. And, hey, who wouldn’t trust a lawful gun owner who was a trained security guard with full firearm licensing? So all gun owners should be presumed guilty until proven innocent? That’s an arbitrary and ad hoc argument. Why not ban Muslim immigration while we’re at? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/288 "2016-06-20T08:30:50Z")
No. Not at all. I’m just like you, brother. I think every crank with an attitude should have access every weapon in every caliber with big gigantic 1,000 round magazines so that he can grease as many people as he wants in the most efficient way possible. See. I can exclude middles too. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/289 "2016-06-20T08:39:10Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > See. I can exclude middles too. You’ve no doubt had much practice. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/290 "2016-06-20T11:24:04Z")
I’ve not read the whole thread - frankly, the arguments from both sides are beating a long-dead horse and no-one is being won over to the other side - so I do not know if anyone has posted this yet. If so: my apologies. If not, I present to you “Thoughts and Prayers: the game” > **[Thoughts & Prayers: The Game](http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/)** > > America faces an epidemic of mass shootings. It's up to you to stop them... with the power of your thoughts and prayers. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/291 "2016-06-20T11:54:14Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Far too much freedom has already been lost. {…} Oooh one of those! So often seen in the wild, so rare to have one to study. If we ask it for actual evidence of “too much freedom has already been lost” will it actually have real examples or will it just ignore us? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/292 "2016-06-20T12:21:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Oooh one of those! So often seen in the wild, so rare to have one to study. > > If we ask it for actual evidence of “too much freedom has already been lost” will it actually have real examples or will it just ignore us? > > CMC fnord! Oh, **Waymore** has been perfectly willing to give examples. Some of them may surprise you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/293 "2016-06-20T13:00:11Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > You’ve no doubt had much practice. What the fuck does that even mean in context? You are the one excluding middles all over hell and gone. But then again, seeing as you don’t even recognize a fallacy when you use one I guess I do have more experience in this arena. After all, I know what I’m talking about and you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/294 "2016-06-20T19:46:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You notice right because the last time it was proposed the assault weapons bill was soundly defeated. And while a few Democrats did vote against it, 16 Democrats voted against the AWB. That’s like a third of Democrats. Pretty much Democrats from every swing state. > [@](#): > > once again the Republicans were the ones that voted against it and many other proposals. What “many other proposals” are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/295 "2016-06-21T04:33:55Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Oooh one of those! So often seen in the wild, so rare to have one to study. > > If we ask it for actual evidence of “too much freedom has already been lost” will it actually have real examples or will it just ignore us? > > CMC fnord! I’ve ducked no question, won’t start now. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/296 "2016-06-21T10:25:54Z")
You just did. How about _now_? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/297 "2016-06-21T11:25:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > (And even with the confiscations there are still Australians with guns, specially in farms as NPR reported recently) Umm, you do know that,even officially, [there are more guns in Australia now, than before the firearms restrictions](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/australia-has-'more-guns-than-before-port-arthur-massacre'/7366360)? Right? Officially firearm ownership per household rates is lower (from ~15% of households to ~ 8%). But there is no evidence the legislation ahd any effect on the trend. [It had declined ~10% in the decade prior to the legislation and has declined by about the same amount in the the twenty years since.](http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/proportion_of_households_with_firearms) As far as the actual figures, nobody knows. [We know there are about 200, 000 illegal firearms circulating in a nation of 20 million people.](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-20/over-200000-illegal-guns-circulating-in-australia/5980862) That’s near enough one illegal firearm for every 100 people: man, woman and baby. [The number of firearms suicides declined consistently from 1991 to 1998](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/261-280/tandi269.html) (legislation being introduced in 2006). To suggest that there are “still” Australians with guns is incredibly misleading. There are probably more Australians with guns now than before the legislation. At best the ratio of Australians with ready access to legally owned forearms has halved. Moreover, To suggest that there has been any reduction firearm suicide rate, let alone overall suicide rate, is doubtful at best. Suicide rates are small and fluctuate all the time.[It has increased by 3% over the past 10 years, for example.](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/suicide-rates-road-toll-john-brogden-fact-check/6822324). Yes, it declines following the buyback, but no more than the current trend. In fact [it peaked in 1998, two years after the buyback ended](https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007). This peak was associated with a near doubling of the rate of hanging, and occurred despite a 60% fall in firearm suicides between 1988 and 1998. Moreover as obvious options like firearms decline, options like driving into an oncoming truck become preferred, and are almost impossible to determine as suicide. Maybe there has been a decline on actual (as opposed to determinable) suicide rates, concomitant with firearm ownership, but it’s impossible to determine. Australia currently has more firearms but a lower suicide rate. the rate of hanging has increased, but the rate of shooting has declined. As with all the arguments, the statistics are uncertain. The unvarnished facts are: 1. The long term trend remians essentially unchanged,[.](http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/6834466/data/suicide-historical-chart-fact-check-data.png) 2)The suicide rate in Australia was declining for 25 years before the buyback. 3)It increased in the three years following the buyback because, despite a reduction in shooting suicides, the hanging suicide more than counterbalanced it. 2. Since that high, it has has continued its previous decline ever since despite increasing numbers of firearms. This can, and has been, argued as evidence for or against the effect of the buyback. The truth is that it’s ambiguous data with no change form the multi decadal trend. If someone tried to use similar data based on a three year spike to argue against climate change you would be all over them for ignoring the multi decadal trend Try being consistent and honest with this data as well. then tell us what you actually see in that data. Is there really a statistically significant decline between 98 and 2015 that rusn counter to the 63-15 trend. (Heads up, I’ve run some stats on the data, and I’ll trot them out in future climate change threads if you say the 98-15 data is a significant sign of reversal of the multi decadal trend.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/298 "2016-06-21T20:36:27Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Umm, you do know that,even officially, [there are more guns in Australia now, than before the firearms restrictions](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-28/australia-has-'more-guns-than-before-port-arthur-massacre'/7366360)? > > Right? Right, that was going to be my next point in case the gun proponents still make a lot of hay about opposing measures like what Australia did. Because indeed I have heard a lot of the gun proponents claiming that all guns were confiscated, not the case. As for your nonsensical dare about comparing trends, I looked at more recent studies, so your talk about a 3 year spike makes no sense. (Actually like a good climate change denier you point at studies with graphs that just ended in 2001 just to make the sorry 3 year spike point). [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/world/australia/australia-gun-ban-shooting.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/world/australia/australia-gun-ban-shooting.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > To assess these claims, scholars have examined not just mass shootings, but also all intentional deaths caused by firearms, adjusting for population growth. > > Total intentional gun deaths fell by half in the decade after the 1996 restrictions were put in place, even as Australia’s population grew nearly 14 percent. The rate of gun suicides per 100,000 people dropped 65 percent from 1995 to 2006, and the rate of gun homicides fell 59 percent, according to a 2010 study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University. > > When the data in that study is updated to include the latest figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, as well as the numbers going back to 1968, several facts emerge. > > First, the rates of intentional firearm deaths were substantially higher in the 28 years before the gun control measures were adopted in 1996 than in the 17 years after. How much of that decline can be attributed to the new policies can be debated, but the difference is clear. > > Second, the initial drop in firearm deaths in the decade after the 1996 restrictions were enacted appears to have leveled off. In 2013, the most recent year for which figures are available, there were 200 gun-related homicides and suicides, for a rate of 0.87 deaths per 100,000 residents. That is up slightly from the low in 2005, when 0.82 deaths per 100,000 residents were recorded, but still far below the 2.71 deaths per 100,000 residents in 1996. > > The data confirms that gun deaths were already falling before the National Firearms Agreement. The rate of intentional gun deaths fell about 33 percent from 1986 to 1996. The decline accelerated, however, under the new gun control measures, with the rate dropping about 60 percent from 1996 to 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/299 "2016-06-21T22:37:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You just did. How about _now_? Ask a question and I’ll answer. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/300 "2016-06-22T04:56:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Oooh one of those! So often seen in the wild, so rare to have one to study. > > If we ask it for actual evidence of “too much freedom has already been lost” will it actually have real examples or will it just ignore us? > > CMC fnord! [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/us/supreme-court-says-police-may-use-evidence-found-after-illegal-stops.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/us/supreme-court-says-police-may-use-evidence-found-after-illegal-stops.html?_r=0) > **[Oklahoma Cops Can Now Seize Money From Prepaid Debit Cards, Without Filing...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2016/06/08/oklahoma-cops-can-now-seize-money-from-prepaid-debit-cards-without-filing-criminal-charges/#103736442c8c)** > > The company behind the devices will also receive a “processing fee” of 7.7% of all money seized using the readers. There is some freedom lost right there. Don’t worry the state is your friend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=16)