# Know what? FUCK your thoughts and prayers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299 "2016-06-13T23:25:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/161 "2016-06-15T00:38:51Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=795661) is a current gun thread in GD where a couple gun rights advocates actually offer something more than derision. Be careful though, the quality of conversation there is a little too sophisticated for your typical posting style. If you’re referring to **Damuri Ajashi** , please remember that he gloats about the \*defeat \*of the very measures he claims to support. You seem to be new here, or at least to this subject, so your lack of preparation can be overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/162 "2016-06-15T00:49:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Pssst: Afghanistan and Iraq aren’t part of the US military’s home turf. > > Malheur, Waco, and Ruby Ridge all are. > > Every time self-imagined domestic “tyranny fighters” have tried to enact their fantasy of “deposing the tyrants” by challenging the modern US military and paramilitary law enforcement, they’ve been ignominiously crushed. > Oh right, I forgot that alternative “tyranny-fighting” strategy. Let me just add that to my previous list: > > The best you can offer in response to Jack Batty’s sensible point that privately-owned arms aren’t adequate for a successful insurrectionist stand against the military is to hope that: > > **(a)** a significant portion of the military would desert to the insurrectionists’ side and bring their non-privately-owned superior arms with them, and/or > > **(b)** the military would be too incompetent to prevail against a vastly inferior force, even though the military would be backed up by civilian authority and the good will of the overwhelming majority of the populace, and/or > > **(c)** the vastly inferior force of the insurrectionists might somehow get superhumanly and miraculously lucky against indisputably overwhelming odds merely on the theoretical premise that “you never know”. > Yeah, no. Your fantasy of domestic “tyranny fighting” is still a pathetically unrealistic daydream that no responsible grownup need take seriously when discussing the genuine issues involved in gun ownership regulation. > Massive national resources and _opposing armies_, dude. On a scale that you self-imagined “tyranny fighters” could never realistically hope to equal a millionth part of. > There is absolutely no valid reason that serious, everyday gun policy aimed at balancing the realistic needs and concerns of the populace as a whole should be based in any way on the kind of large-scale apocalyptic fantasies that the self-imagined “tyranny fighters” love to indulge in. > > If we ever do end up in a situation where millions of civilians are pitted in a struggle for life against their tyrannical government, it won’t make a blind bit of difference what the laws say. **Our laws need to apply realistically to our society as it exists with the rule of law in force** , rather than catering to apocalyptic fantasies of what we’d like to be able to do in the massively improbable event of total anarchy and chaos. Not a single revolt against a tyrannical government has ever succeeded? Wait, my history books back in the real world tell a different story. A constitution, split government, gun rights etc are all hedges against tyranny. Not a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/163 "2016-06-15T01:30:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not a single revolt against a tyrannical government has ever succeeded? Not any of the ones started by small groups of posturing “patriots” against a modern military in a democratic nation under the rule of law. Which is the sort of “revolt” that I’m talking about here, no matter how assiduously you keep trying to nudge those goalposts. [QUOTE=octopus] A constitution, split government, gun rights etc are all hedges against tyranny. [/QUOTE] And the constitution, split government, and other non-weapons-related provisions are the only ones that matter in the least when it comes to actually **preventing** tyranny in the case of a modern democratic society with a modern military. In the event of **actual** large-scale tyranny and stasis (which, as I noted, your legally-owned guns aren’t doing a thing to deter or prevent in the face of the far superior might of the government), the official legality of gun possession will be completely irrelevant in the catastrophic collapse of the rule of law altogether. In the event of insurrection on a more realistic scale (as per the abovementioned Ruby Ridge, Waco and Malheur), your legally-owned guns will merely justify the far superior might of the government in blowing you away faster when you try to provoke a showdown. As I have often said before, there are many valid and sensible reasons for law-abiding responsible people to choose to own a gun. But _“I want to be legally equipped for effectively resisting tyrannical jackbooted thugs in case of apocalyptic disaster where civil society literally collapses into bloody anarchy”_ and _“I like to fantasize about effectively resisting tyrannical jackbooted thugs even in a relatively stable and peaceful society where my small group of deluded losers would be easy meat for the far better-equipped and better-supported government forces”_ are not among them. **Gun regulation should make sense for the society we’ve actually got, not for the society your dystopian manga comics and sovcit prepper propaganda inspire you to fantasize about having.** ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/164 "2016-06-15T01:55:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not any of the ones started by small groups of posturing “patriots” against a modern military in a democratic nation under the rule of law. Which is the sort of “revolt” that I’m talking about here, no matter how assiduously you keep trying to nudge those goalposts. > And the constitution, split government, and other non-weapons-related provisions are the only ones that matter in the least when it comes to actually **preventing** tyranny in the case of a modern democratic society with a modern military. > > In the event of **actual** large-scale tyranny and stasis (which, as I noted, your legally-owned guns aren’t doing a thing to deter or prevent in the face of the far superior might of the government), the official legality of gun possession will be completely irrelevant in the catastrophic collapse of the rule of law altogether. > > In the event of insurrection on a more realistic scale (as per the abovementioned Ruby Ridge, Waco and Malheur), your legally-owned guns will merely justify the far superior might of the government in blowing you away faster when you try to provoke a showdown. > As I have often said before, there are many valid and sensible reasons for law-abiding responsible people to choose to own a gun. But _“I want to be legally equipped for effectively resisting tyrannical jackbooted thugs in case of apocalyptic disaster where civil society literally collapses into bloody anarchy”_ and _“I like to fantasize about effectively resisting tyrannical jackbooted thugs even in a relatively stable and peaceful society where my small group of deluded losers would be easy meat for the far better-equipped and better-supported government forces”_ are not among them. > **Gun regulation should make sense for the society we’ve actually got, not for the society your dystopian manga comics and sovcit prepper propaganda inspire you to fantasize about having.** Germany was not a modern democracy before a fascist takeover? Things are good until they aren’t. That said what are your concrete proposals to prevent mass murder? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/165 "2016-06-15T02:10:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except there’s no reason to think any of that would do anything but _increase_ the rate of violence. > > As well, freedom of speech is important in ensuring people’s freedom,while one of the primary function of gun advocacy is destroy people’s freedom as much as possible. Both directly through terror tactics, and by encouraging people to focus on the useless “right” to own a gun while the rights that \*actually matter \*are taken away. > > Pro-gun people don’t care about free speech, opposing torture or false imprisonment or any other form of human rights; they’d cheerfully see the world turned into a totalitarian dictatorship as long as they could clutch their stupid guns. > > Nor do I believe for a moment that a significant number of pro-gun people felt any sympathy whatsoever about the killings. Some didn’t care; most probably cheered inside. Both because the victims were “sinners”, and because they saw an opportunity to push their holy gun fetish. Human life is meaningless to them; guns are important. Wow, more strawmen than a county fair’s scarecrow contest. Thanks **Der Trihs** , with enemies like you I don’t need support. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/166 "2016-06-15T02:12:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > When are you moving to the paradise of Somalia? You can’t get a decent take-out pizza there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/167 "2016-06-15T02:14:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Germany was not a modern democracy before a fascist takeover? Things are good until they aren’t. In fact, the fascist takeover of Germany was accompanied by **loosened** restrictions on gun ownership and **increased** possession of guns. Of course, I’m not claiming that more gun ownership is what made Germany a fascist state. But it’s equally nonsensical to claim (outside of the self-imagined “tyranny fighters’” fantasy scenarios, which are nonsensical anyway) that even more gun ownership would have **kept** Germany from becoming a fascist state. Like I said, realistic gun laws need to be designed for the society that actually exists. Not for the fantasy scenario of _“oh noes what if our society suddenly becomes a fascist tyranny so we gotta make sure we have enough guns that we can be like Captain America and SAVE OUR FREEEEEEEEDUM!!!”_. Keep that kind of argument on the playground where it belongs. [QUOTE=octopus] That said what are your concrete proposals to prevent mass murder? [/QUOTE] I don’t know what effectively prevents mass murder. So when trying to figure out what policies on gun ownership regulation would best support that aim, I’m going to listen to responsible well-informed adults, rather than self-professed “tyranny fighters” obsessed with daydreams about OUR GUNS SAVING US ALL FROM THE FASCIST THUGS OF THE GUMMINT. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/168 "2016-06-15T02:41:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In fact, the fascist takeover of Germany was accompanied by **loosened** restrictions on gun ownership and **increased** possession of guns. > > Of course, I’m not claiming that more gun ownership is what made Germany a fascist state. But it’s equally nonsensical to claim (outside of the self-imagined “tyranny fighters’” fantasy scenarios, which are nonsensical anyway) that even more gun ownership would have **kept** Germany from becoming a fascist state. > > Like I said, realistic gun laws need to be designed for the society that actually exists. Not for the fantasy scenario of _“oh noes what if our society suddenly becomes a fascist tyranny so we gotta make sure we have enough guns that we can be like Captain America and SAVE OUR FREEEEEEEEDUM!!!”_. Keep that kind of argument on the playground where it belongs. > > I don’t know what effectively prevents mass murder. So when trying to figure out what policies on gun ownership regulation would best support that aim, I’m going to listen to responsible well-informed adults, rather than self-professed “tyranny fighters” obsessed with daydreams about OUR GUNS SAVING US ALL FROM THE FASCIST THUGS OF THE GUMMINT. Well you do that. I’m going to keep stockpiling ammo in case of zombies! And we each have one vote. Ain’t democracy grand? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/169 "2016-06-15T02:42:49Z")
So all those Europeans, Canadians, and Australians are helpless against tyranny? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear that. Or are they just too stupid and dependent on the government health care teat to even do more than bleat when a tyrant comes to power? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/170 "2016-06-15T02:53:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m going to keep stockpiling ammo in case of zombies! And we each have one vote. Not counting the influence we exert on the votes of others by means of persuasive reasoned arguments, of course. So please, do keep on telling us all how you need to keep stockpiling ammo in case of zombies and how we need to base our current gun ownership regulations on fantasy someday scenarios of dystopian tyranny and insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/171 "2016-06-15T02:55:02Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So all those Europeans, Canadians, and Australians are helpless against tyranny? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear that. Or are they just too stupid and dependent on the government health care teat to even do more than bleat when a tyrant comes to power? How’d Ireland deal with the UK? Irregular warfare iirc. What about Syria? Assad had a powerful modern army. To boRRow KimStu’_s_ random emphasis STYLE,\*\* without \*\*RUSSIAN intervention ASSAD would be dragged nekkid THRU the streets of DAMASCUS with a stick up his ass akin to Khadaffi. O M G! How’s that possible against a MODERN army? AGAINST THE GUMMINT!???! Do the random points of emphasis make this clear? The fact that the concept of a hedge and multiple constraints on the powers of different groups of people mitigates the risk of tyranny escapes the modern left is perplexing. You guys worship the state whose agents shoot unarmed black men and plant evidence. Who is the real problem? Statists or those who realize that life is complicated and the best way to ensure freedom is not to empower any one institution disproportionately. And I’m still waiting to read some concrete proposals on how to prevent mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/172 "2016-06-15T03:26:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thoughts and prayers aren’t cutting it. They aren’t getting the job done. > > … Maybe the wrong people are just praying harder. I can think of a few “Christians” I know who probably consider this an OK thing, on balance. They’re first order douche bags, but they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/173 "2016-06-15T07:17:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :rolleyes: So you’re a posturing pretend-anarchist who benefits from the advantages of the rule of law in a civilized society, with all its inevitable accompanying governmental restrictions, while claiming that you’re nonetheless staunchly opposed to all such restrictions. > > And the only restrictions you actually care about enough to complain about are the ones on gun ownership. > > Yes, that does indeed make you a hypocrite. Not to mention a rather _vieux jeu_ one. I thought all you libertarian-stylee posturing pretend-anarchists crawled back into your holes after Katrina and the 2008 market crash, but apparently there are still a few who think indiscriminate cries of “FREEEEEDUMB” are adequate justification for policy positions. You try to foist a position on me, namely that I’m fine with the regulation of milk. I counter that I’m not fine with that at all. So you make up a bullshit excuse that I don’t complain about the regulation of milk **IN A THREAD THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REGULATION OF MILK.** Two lessons you should take from this. First, don’t make up your opponent’s position in a debate. Secondly, don’t try rectify your first attempt by coming up with a flimsy excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/174 "2016-06-15T07:41:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Waymore, question. > > Imagine that I am a convicted serial killer released from jail on probation. Imagine I have made it very clear that I want to kill again. Should I be allowed to buy an AR-15 with no questions asked? Made it clear to whom? By what means? It’s a very hypothetical question, and has nothing at all to do with the topic. The vast majority of gun owners aren’t convicted serial killers broadcasting their intention to kill again. The odds of the average person being killed in a mass shooting is very small. It’s a simple choice, freedom or security. I choose freedom. Don’t force your preference for security on me and others like me, we’re not hurting anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/175 "2016-06-15T07:45:20Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > The main restriction post- Port Arthur was on semi-auto and pump action firearms. Thats it. Even then professional shooters/cullers can own them if they need them in the line of work. So, people who aren’t professional shooters/cullers lost the right to own semi-autos and pump action firearms. And it seems considerable obstacles were thrown up regarding the use of other firearms. That’s what the people in Australia lost. I don’t want to have the same loss. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/176 "2016-06-15T07:52:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You value selfishness over others’ deaths. “Give me liberty even if it gives you death!” seems to be your rallying cry. My guns aren’t killing anybody. Try again. > [@Gyrate](#): > > No, we want to limit your rights so that vast numbers of people don’t die of preventable diseases, car crashes and/or gunshots. That’s how basic civilization works. This idea that people want more regulation for the sake of regulation is a fantasy. I’ve not argued that people want regulation for its own sake. I’ve argued that there’s a tradeoff between freedom and security, and I err on the side of freedom. Wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never go outside for all I care. I’m not forcing my worldview or way of life on you. You are most certainly trying to force your worldview and way of life on me. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/177 "2016-06-15T07:53:19Z")
I will pray for you, **ElvisL1ves**. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/178 "2016-06-15T07:53:58Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > So, people who aren’t professional shooters/cullers lost the right to own semi-autos and pump action firearms. And it seems considerable obstacles were thrown up regarding the use of other firearms. That’s what the people in Australia lost. I don’t want to have the same loss. A few minor inconveniences against 33,000 or so lives and US$500M in hospital costs per year. Not much of a loss. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/179 "2016-06-15T07:55:02Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Now if y’all will excuse me, I need to find my whip. The cotton ain’t gonna pick itself!” When my handgun becomes a sentient human being you’ll have a point. Until then, you’re just trying to besmirch by association. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/180 "2016-06-15T07:59:10Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > So what you’re saying is that we should learn to love mass killings? I’m sure this is suppose to be some great display of wit, but just in case it’s not, how could you possibly interpret my post to mean that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=10)