# Know what the bible REALLY says about abortion? NUTHIN. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046 "2002-06-02T22:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/1 "2002-06-02T22:23:25Z")
Oh yeah sure, “thou shalt not kill” and all that… But of course the great ongoing debate is whether a fetus IS a child, and is terminating a non-viable one really murder…? From all the hard-line, self-righteous noise the born-again Christian community has been making on this issue, you’d think there’d be a definitive Biblical answer to this question. All I can find is an Old-Testament reference: that if you punch a pregnant woman in the stomach and she consequently miscarries, you have to pay a fine. Doen’t exactly sound like a punishment for murder. Also, I keep looking for that part of the Sermon on the Mount that says, “Blessed are the Abortion Clinic Bombers, for theirs is—” How does that go again? ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/2 "2002-06-02T22:27:08Z")
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. ---
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/3 "2002-06-02T23:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by masonite \* > \*\*Jer 1:5 > Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. \*\* Nuh-no. That only refers to that particular “thee”, i.e. the Prophet Jeremiah. The quote’s a God-ordained validation of Jer. as such. Besides, if God knew Jeremiah “…before [he] formed thee [Jeremiah] in the belly…”, wouldn’t that rather support the “Every Sperm Is Sacred” idea? It’s not what I’m talking about. Pay attention. God only sanctified “thee” (Jeremiah) in that quote, not the whole unborn human race. My question is, WHERE DOES IT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT (ALL) ABORTION IS IN FACT “KILLING”? You’d think the Word of God would be really clear on such an important issue. I’m still looking. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/4 "2002-06-02T23:34:37Z")
Steady on Hillbilly; Masonite was quoting one of the passages that are used to support the idea that life as a human being begins at conception; that is relevant to this debate even though it doesn’t directly answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/5 "2002-06-03T00:33:20Z")
Were abortions even possible in Biblical times? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/6 "2002-06-03T00:57:28Z")
Don’t forget that the verse quoted above from Jeremiah may very well have been referring to just the prophet’s spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/7 "2002-06-03T00:57:57Z")
I’m not an authority **tracer** , but the effects of certain plants (of which extracts are still used in medicine today to stimulate labour) have been known for a very long time, so perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/8 "2002-06-03T01:08:11Z")
Heh. Insider stock info trading?..not “specifically” banned in the bible either. Nuclear arms proliferation? nada Hacking into someones computer? nope Selling crack to grade school kids? Nothing in my RSV Of course I suppose that it would be kinda ironic to point out that the constitution says squat about a “specific” **right** to abortion either… :rolleyes" > [@](#): > > Also, I keep looking for that part of the Sermon on the Mount that says, “Blessed are the Abortion Clinic Bombers, for theirs is—” > How does that go again? Umm same place it says for Earth First to destroy public property and maim people in the name of environmentalism…your point would be what, that there are extermists in a political movement…shocking I tell you, shocking!! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/9 "2002-06-03T01:26:47Z")
I see that passage as stating that, in the case of Jerimiah, God had a special role for him even before conception. “Before I formed thee in the belly” indicates a time _prior_ to conception. Maybe this is what **Monty** means when he refers to Jerimiah’s spirit. Still I think it would be fair to say that if abortion techniques were unknown in biblical times, then it wouldn’t be expected for the Bible to proscribe something unknown and undoable. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/10 "2002-06-03T01:29:47Z")
Rape was not specifically condemned in the Bible either, and yet it is recognized as a major no-no due to spiritual principles. A _specific_ act may not be condemned, but that doesn’t mean that the Bible condones it – not if the Bible contains principles that render that act wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/11 "2002-06-03T01:51:03Z")
But you said it right there in the beginning–“Thou shalt not kill.” It follows that IF the unborn child is a living human person, then it falls under the murder no-no. This is contingent on whether the fetus has an immortal soul. The counter-argument is, “How do we know when the soul is infused? Could be after birth.” The response is that you’re taking a colossal risk if there IS an immortal soul there…kinda like shooting a gun into a room, not knowing if anyone was in there, and then saying “I didn’t know anyone was in there when I fired.” And, as the earlier posts mention, abortion wasn’t possible in Biblical times (to my knowledge), although various forms of feticide were; i.e., stabbing a pregnany woman in the belly. Oh, best Biblical evidence I can think of: when pregnant Mary visits her cousin Elizabeth, who’s pregnant with John the Baptist. (This is in the early Luke chapters.) The unborn John “leaps for joy” at the presence of Christ. That’s a pretty human reaction to me. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/12 "2002-06-03T02:02:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > Rape was not specifically condemned in the Bible either, and yet it is recognized as a major no-no due to spiritual principles. Errm…The Biblical penalty for rape is death: > [@](#): > > If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her. If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. – [Deuteronomy 22:23-29](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=DEUT+22:23-29&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) Mind you, I’m not wild about this set of laws. In the first, since the girl didn’t cry for help, it’s assumed she was complicit, making it adultery, not rape (also a capital crime–for both parties). I don’t know if the law was in practice capable of grasping things like “They were in a town, but he had a knife to her throat and said he would kill her if she made a sound”. Also, only rape of a betrothed woman (almost the same as married in Old Testament law) was punishable by death (I assume the same would apply to forcible rape of another man’s full-fledged wife as well). The penalty for rape of an unbetrothed woman was an indissoluble shotgun marriage, which I can’t say is an idea I would endorse. Still, the subject of rape is certainly covered in Biblical law. The Greeks and Romans knew of and practiced abortion (by herbal abortifacients, I believe). It is interesting that the Mosaic law (which covers topics from menstruation to leprosy to sanitation procedures in military encampments) never explicitly says “if a pregnant woman takes any plant which causes her to miscarry, the penalty shall be \_\_\_\_”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/13 "2002-06-03T02:40:32Z")
I started googling this subject, then was hit by a wave of laziness. Be that as it may, [abortion has been practiced since Biblical times.](http://www.atlanta-mfm.com/clindisc/vol1no3.html) “. The most common ancient methods of abortion included laxatives, emetics and ergot alkaloids. The most common modern-day analogues are castor oil (laxative), Ipecac (emetic) and methergine (ergot alkaloid). Mortality and morbidity associated with ancient abortion was significant…” [www.religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org) has a nice set of pages on [abortion.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm) The biblical stance on abortion, in addition to the views of early Christians and Jews, can be linked to from [here.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_bibl.htm) Here’s one summary: “Neither the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) nor the Christian Scriptures address abortion directly. However, writings in the early Christian movement by the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd century CE do condemn abortion.” But see Exodus 21:22 and Luke 1:41. Also, note the flip-flopping on the issue over subsequent centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/14 "2002-06-03T03:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hillbillycavewoman \* > **Pay attention.** Be polite. 😉 Especially in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![tyllwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@tyllwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tyllwin)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/15 "2002-06-03T04:33:09Z")
Abortions were common enough 400 years before Christ that Hippocrates incorporated a pledge not to perform them in his oath for physicians ---
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/16 "2002-06-03T05:08:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Heh. Insider stock info trading?..not “specifically” banned in the bible either. > > Nuclear arms proliferation? nada > > Hacking into someones computer? nope > > Selling crack to grade school kids? Nothing in my RSV… > \*\* Big deal; it doesn’t “specifically” ban a lot of things. Most of the crimes and misdeeds you’ve cited above are already illegal, and they have no opposition groups claiming to be Backed By God. Not the case with abortion. My point is simply this: if you’re going to wave the Bible around as support for your position, you’d better be able to show where it clearly does give that support. Btw re my “Blessed are the Abortion Clinic Bombers…” thing: Hmm… i KNEW I should have simply said “protesters” instead of “bombers”…lesson learned. ---
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/17 "2002-06-03T05:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\* > Be polite. 😉 > > Especially in Great Debates. \*\* Would you settle for civil? If I try to hard to be “polite”, it ends up sounding dangerously like sarcasm. I’ll work on it ---
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/18 "2002-06-03T05:18:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flowbark \* > \*\*I started googling this subject, … > Here’s one summary: “Neither the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) nor the Christian Scriptures address abortion directly. However, writings in the early Christian movement by the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd century CE do condemn abortion.” But see Exodus 21:22 and Luke 1:41. Also, note the flip-flopping on the issue over subsequent centuries. \*\* THANK you! ---
**Author:** ![hillbillycavewoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@hillbillycavewoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hillbillycavewoman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/19 "2002-06-03T05:50:58Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* \*\* …It is interesting that the Mosaic law (which covers topics from menstruation to leprosy to sanitation procedures in military encampments) never explicitly says “if a pregnant woman takes any plant which causes her to miscarry, the penalty shall be \_\_\_\_”. \*\*[/QUOTE Yes. That is EXACTLY my point! IT DOESN’T. Wow, really thorough treatment of the rape question from you, too. (And I totally agree) All-you-guys,(and I use that in the non-gender-specific mode) this has been well and truly educational for me. I’m not an old hand at this yet. I never just up and started my own thread before. This was fun. Most boards and forums, you don’t get such articulate arguments. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046/20 "2002-06-03T06:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > Of course I suppose that it would be kinda ironic to point out that the constitution says squat about a “specific” **right** to abortion either… :rolleyes"_\* US citizens’ rights do not come from the Constitution. Various articles plus several amendments guarantee certain rights, but even if they are not specifically mentioned, other rights are guaranteed by the 9th amendment. The constitution outlines the powers that we, as citizens grant to the government in the interest of attaining the aims specified in the preamble. All rights and all other powers belong to we the people either individually or collectively. I’m tired of hearing about “constitutional rights” as if those are all there are. See this site. [Ninth Amendment and Commentary](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment09/) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-the-bible-really-says-about-abortion-nuthin/112046.md?page=2)