[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Your basic assumption that Bin Laden was involved in 911, is flawed. He has never been charged or connected to 911. http://www.informationclearinghouse…ticle13664.htm Cheney admitted it several times. He is responsible for 3 or 4 other bombings though,.
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Someone should have told Obama to read that 5 year old article clearly showing that ObL was innocent!! It could have saved a life! Why didn’t anyone tell the President that the FBI had no evidence that ObL was responsible for 9/11??? Is Chaney and Bush still in charge and Obama just a puppet??? I sense a conspiracy here!!! We must get to the bottom of this immediately!
Thanks for that very believable cite from information clearing house, gonzo! It’s a real shame you didn’t make the President aware of it 2 weeks ago, when it could have saved an innocent mans life, though. :(…:eek:…:smack:
As for the original question, my belief is yes. While Bid Laden has multiple concrete goals in mind (such as forcing US military bases out of the mid-east or a resolution to the israel-palestine situation, which have not been obtained), like all fighters, he also has also a strong desire to simply hurt the enemy. (And if he gets to become a martyr in the process, so much the better).
No one, not even the perpetrators, thinks the 9/11 attack was the most effective way to accomplish policy goals. They just felt the need to lash out.
Then don’t post anything that could be construed an accusation of trolling outside The BBQ Pit. Even if you are sure, don’t post anything that could be construed an accusation of trolling outside The BBQ Pit.
(Alas, I do fear our society’s culture is endangered when a generation arises that does not have a visceral connection with Animal House.)
Somehow I think you’ll sing a different tune when they remake it.
I do think he made the same mistake that the Japanese did, a ‘low blow’ attack on American is going to galvanize an otherwise generally apathetic populace.
Let me help you out with the complicated math. Cheney’s talk was a few years after 911.
Bin Laden was guilty of masterminding several attacks. It just happens that 911 was not one of them.
I don’t believe I said he was an innocent man. But I do expect arguments like that from you.
I also don’t know why you think one interview with Cheney proves anything. He and the administration blamed bin Laden for the attacks many times, but those don’t count. The one time Cheney says there was no link to bin Laden (and he’s clearly talking about Saddam Hussein, since that’s who he was asked about), that’s supposed to be definitive.
ETA: This is also kind of off-topic for this thread.
It is too early to tell. After 9/11 Osama bin Laden said that the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan bankrupted the Soviet Union and lead to the fall of the USSR. He said that the American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq would have the same effect on the United States.
So far it seems to be happening. Millions of Americans face long term unemployment with little or nothing in the way of a personal or a governmental safety net. Millions have lost their homes, or are in danger of doing so. The national debt is growing dramatically. The standard of living for most Americans has declined since 9/11.
The United States is at least as polarized as it was during the War in Vietnam, when most Americans were better off than ever before, and when the national debt, as a percentage of gross domestic product was declining. People are openly advocating secession from the United States.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Let me help you out with the complicated math. Cheney’s talk was a few years after 911.
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Were his lips moving? Well, let me help YOU out…if they were, HE WAS LYING. And whether Cheney said he did do it, or he didn’t do it, or he was out blowing goats is irrelevant. I don’t GIVE a fuck what Cheney said or didn’t say.
Clear enough?
Again, why didn’t anyone tell Obama? HE still thought ObL was responsible. He thought he was responsible enough to SEND A FUCKING SEAL TEAM INTO A COUNTRY WITHOUT PERMISSION TO KILL THE MAN! Seriously…try and get a fucking grip.
Not the irony burning. It is the stupidity. Bin Laden has been in charge of a terrorist group that had killed lots of people. We believe they were planning more. That is a reason to go after him. You do understand he was implicated in 3 attacks, don’t you. You probably know we were after him before 911.
He was the Al lQeada leader. Al Qeada was promising to attack us. We had identified him as the mastermind of the most important terrorist organization in the world. He was our number one boogieman.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Not the irony burning. It is the stupidity.
[/QUOTE]
You are quite right (could be a first for you)…it does. Just not in the way you think.
I know all about his activities and the activities of AQ prior to 9/11, guru. But Obama sent a Seal team into Pakistan specifically for what he did to the US during the 9/11 attacks. Did you watch his speech when he announced he made the call to send in the team to get Osama?? Did he say anything remotely like ‘Well, we don’t have any evidence that ObL had anything to do with 9/11, but we decided to whack him anyway, since he did other stuff against us, and it seemed the thing to do’??
Again, for the 3rd time at least, are you saying that Obama didn’t know that there was no evidence against ObL participating in 9/11? Are you saying that NO ONE POINTED THIS LITTLE DETAIL OUT TO HIM?? And that, since it’s supposedly so well known that it’s on such stellar places as information clearing house, that no one has since followed up on this key piece of data?
Good grief. Your logic (to use that word loosely) is truly dizzying. So…they were promising to attack us (ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS!), we had identified him as the ‘mastermind of the most important terrorist organization’ (even though he wasn’t really involved in operations anymore, since, you know HE WAS FUCKING HIDING OUT BECAUSE OF HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE GOD DAMNED 9/11 ATTACKS AND IN FEAR FOR HIS LIFE!), and he was our ‘number one boogieman’ (rinse and repeat the other reasons capitalized previously).
Sometimes even you can surprise me with stuff like this, gonzo…
As a result of 9/11, the USA got into two decade long wars, lost over 5000 dead, and thousands seriously wounded. He also caused the US to spend trillions of dollars, and seriously weakened the US economy.
His act of terrorism paid off, over a million to one.
I think he would have restructured AQ to be more resistant to the things the US was able to do to it (like interrupting some of it’s funding streams, adopting different communications channels/techniques), but I think he would have gone through with the WTC attacks regardless.
I don’t think he really expected the US to fold like a house of straw, but considering the level of extremism required to make suicide bombing a revered tactic (the bomber’s decision and memory is honored), even striking a blow that only kills “x” number of folks is mandated by that ideology.
I don’t think he would have. I think he would have continued attacking US targets abroad like the west African embassies and the USS Cole. He did not realize what kind of line he was crossing with an actual attack on American soil.
And you think he wanted to bankrupt the country for fun? He wanted to “bankrupt” the U.S. for a reason, and RickJay gave a decent summary of what that reason is. In any case he’s wrong about the militants in Afghanistan. They bled the USSR militarily, but they didn’t bankrupt the country. That had a lot more to do with the arms race.
I am pretty sure he said the same thing publicly and privately.
Certainly there are broader, overarching goals but in a discussion of whether ObL would change anything I think it is appropriate to point out his tactical goals which he got a long way in achieving. As such not sure what he might have done differently even with the benefit of hindsight. He caused substantial damage far beyond just the WTC/Pentagon.
