# Kobayashi Maru question (Star Trek II) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590 "2009-04-28T04:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/41 "2009-04-28T23:06:39Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > One of the novels I read said the answer was Save your ship at all costs. So do what you have to, but in the end, the safety of your ship is paramount. **ivylass** , what’s the point of a spoiler box when you don’t specify what book you’re spoiling? Anyway, that strikes me as wrong. Starfleet officers’ JOB is to put themselves in jeopardy to protect the lives of civilians. Not recklessly–there’s no point in doing so when it’s clear that intervention will get them killed without helping the civilian–but if they have to choose between saving their own lives and saving civilian lives, their duty is clearly to sacrifice themselves. Which, of course, is why having children on the Enterprise-D is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/42 "2009-04-28T23:07:50Z")
The point of the exercise is to teach this: There is always something else that can be done, or tried. Always one more thing you can do. And you keep trying until the end. Good leaders are not supposed to believe in a no-win situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/43 "2009-04-28T23:11:32Z")
I wonder if the Kobayashi Maru exercise is going to be in the new movie. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/44 "2009-04-29T00:37:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **ivylass** , what’s the point of a spoiler box when you don’t specify what book you’re spoiling? Because I don’t remember the title, but I didn’t want to give away what the book considered the trick to winning the KM scenario. It reminds me of when Troi was going for her commander promotion. She kept failing the last part of the test, when the ship was in danger and nothing she or the crew could do could save it. Riker finally told her to let it go, she wasn’t ever going to get it. She fumes in her quarters, then realizes what she has to do. She sends Holodeck Geordi into the conduit to fix whatever it was, knowing he would get a lethal dose of radiation and die. That was the test…could you sacrifice a member of the crew to save the ship? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/45 "2009-04-29T00:43:29Z")
> [@dotchan](#): > > The conclusion that Kirk came away with, for example, was that the computer is a cheating bastard, so it was alright for him to cheat right back. Bad link. [Was this what you intended to link to?](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard) ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/46 "2009-04-29T01:16:14Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I wonder if the Kobayashi Maru exercise is going to be in the new movie. I believe I read that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/47 "2009-04-29T01:37:56Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > How funny. > > Another Pocket books paperback actually did have Wesley taking the test, I think, in the holodeck, with Picard and Worf serving as his crew. “Boogeymen?” > > Unfortunately, the computer went a little haywire and I don’t believe that the test scenario completed. That’s the only ST novel I’ve ever read. The only reason I remember it is that at one point Wesley feels like a gazebo. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/48 "2009-04-29T02:42:03Z")
> [@](#): > > The only reason I remember it is that at one point Wesley feels like a gazebo. Why, did some paladin take a sword to him? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/49 "2009-04-29T03:30:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Bad link. [Was this what you intended to link to?](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard) Either way, by now, some many years “later,” we understand that computers are only as smart or ethical as the dorks who program them. The only chance Kirk had was to outsmart the computer and, as the problem was described, that meant he had to reprogram it. FTR, despite how hot she appeared in that Federation uniform, that was the last time I found Kirstie Alley unbearably attractive. I tried, but there was no residual hotness. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/50 "2009-04-29T03:41:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why, did some paladin take a sword to him? You beat me to it! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/51 "2009-04-29T04:34:22Z")
As I was reading this thread and thinking about it, I thought of something that Hypno-Toad touched on. After the first semester they do this, it would be pretty pointless. I mean, I am sure word would get around Starfleet Academy “Oh hey, there’s this ‘no-win’ scenario thingy you have to be tested with.” Even if they changed the name and the scenario, candidates would be looking out for the “no-win” scenario during their tests. It would probably color their judgment and affect their performance. Every time they came up on a scenario, they’d probably be thinking “Hmm… I wonder if this is that ‘no-win’ scenario all the previous candidates talk about?” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/52 "2009-04-29T04:55:36Z")
Word would probably leak out, I agree, but I expect the cadets who undergo the test would be under oath and subject to the Federation equivalent of the Official Secrets Act not to blab about it. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/53 "2009-04-29T05:15:21Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > It’s actually one of the better novels from TOS, though continuity is rather neglected. > [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kobayashi\_Maru\_scenario](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru_scenario) Continuity neglect or not, it’s still a great novel. I’m going to go dig it out of the bookshelves in the spare room and give it another read. Thanks for the reminder! ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/54 "2009-04-29T13:10:54Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > There’s an interesting parallel to an episode in the Hornblower series of books. Very early on, in one of the short stories from ‘Mr. Midshipman Hornblower’, Hornblower sits his examination for Lieutenant. I don’t have my copy with me, so I’m paraphrasing the situation from memory, but his hypothetical ‘ship’ is in extreme peril, and with each second the situation becomes worse, making every hesitation or bad decision count against him. ‘You are losing leeway against the shore, and you have been dismasted.’ ‘Uhh, I would… Uhh’ ‘The enemy has carried away the rudder with a 10 pound ball.’ > > It would be an entertaining research project to determine if similar questions or scenarios are commonplace in Naval examinations. No research project necessary–all you need to do is ask. 🙂 I was a U.S. Navy submarine officer. I ran many, many simulations and drills during my training and throughout my career, covering everything from simulated combat to fires to flooding to reactor accidents. During a couple of my oral examinations, I did get some no-win scenarios. For example: uncontrolled flooding in the engine room. I went through all of the proper immediate actions (e.g. emergency blow on the forward ballast tanks, followed by emergency blow on the aft ballast tanks, emergency back full on the main engines, etc., etc. etc.) In the scenario, the submarine continued to flood, and continued to sink. The last bit of discussion revolved around the emergency beacon that would be automatically deployed once the hull imploded. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/55 "2009-04-29T13:42:05Z")
> [@robby](#): > > …In the scenario, the submarine continued to flood, and continued to sink. The last bit of discussion revolved around the emergency beacon that would be automatically deployed once the hull imploded. ☹ As shown in the beginning of _The Abyss_. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/56 "2009-04-29T13:45:03Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > The point of the exercise is to teach this: > > There is always something else that can be done, or tried. Always one more thing you can do. And you keep trying until the end. > > Good leaders are not supposed to believe in a no-win situation. Nah, that’s not the point. If you violate the Neutral Zone, you annoy the Klingons who attack your ship. :eek: If you defend your ship, you start an interstellar war. :smack: Good leaders are not supposed to start interstellar wars (especially over a non-existant ship). The wise leader knows when to report, not take action by himself. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/57 "2009-04-29T14:00:20Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > The point of the exercise is to teach this: > > There is always something else that can be done, or tried. Always one more thing you can do. And you keep trying until the end. > > Good leaders are not supposed to believe in a no-win situation. That’s the Kirk lesson. Other commanders took other lessons away from it. Such as Saavik: she learned not to beat herself up after making tough decisions. That lesson came after the actual simulation, but she wouldn’t have learned it so quickly if she hadn’t gone through the KM scenario. And Wesley in his simulation in TNG learned that he can make tough decisions under fire. What you get out of it is basically self-knowledge that will (hopefully) make you a better commander. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/58 "2009-04-29T14:07:59Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nah, that’s not the point. > > If you violate the Neutral Zone, you annoy the Klingons who attack your ship. :eek: > If you defend your ship, you start an interstellar war. :smack: > > Good leaders are not supposed to start interstellar wars (especially over a non-existant ship). > > The wise leader knows when to report, not take action by himself. Leaders have to make the best decision possible with the available information. The Federation commander does not know that the _Kobayashi Maru_ is a decoy ship. In any event, I don’t know the intricacies of the Neutral Zone treaty, but the whole scenario seems a bit forced to me. Responding to an emergency distress call is a valid reason to cross a proscribed boundary. If it turned out to be a trap, what did the Klingons have to gain from this? Surely an alert, well-armed Federation warship could take out at least one of the Klingon ships before being destroyed, so it’s not like the Klingons would come out unscathed. If a single Federation ship is so vulnerable, maybe Federation doctrine should be changed, and they should travel in battle groups. So in short, I would not ignore the distress call. I would: [ol][li]Send a message to Federation HQ outlining the situation.[/li][li]Man battle stations and raise shields for maximum defensive capability.[/li][li]Enter the Neutral Zone to attempt the rescue.[/li][\*]Be on the alert for Klingon warships. If surprised by them (as the scenario dictates), attempt to negotiate, and, failing that, fire on them first if any aggressive moves were made (e.g. charging weapons, etc.)[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/59 "2009-04-29T14:19:45Z")
A couple of questions I just thought of: \*Wouldn’t the Neutral Zone treaties cover ships in distress that drift into the zone? I would think that there would be a clause in there allowing rescue missions in that case. \*In the KM simulation, have communications between the rescue ship and the Federation been cut off? I would think most people would contact the Federation as soon as they got the distress call from the KM. What do they say to the students when they radio in, “It’s your call”? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/60 "2009-04-29T14:48:07Z")
Wouldn’t the fact that the cadets knew that they were sitting in a simulator in San Francisco taint the test? There is no real danger… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590.md?page=4)