# Kobayashi Maru question (Star Trek II) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590 "2009-04-28T04:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/81 "2009-04-30T00:39:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Indeed, beginning with Hornblower, the standard Hero, R.N. has a flaw. Hornblower became seasick on each voyage, another author’s protagonist was afraid of heights, etc. Kirk has no flaw, save getting really, really pissed off if you tear his shirt. Kirk did have a flaw–a genuine one that is germane to this discussion. Spock nailed it in the episode with Vaal; he blamed himself for the death of every crewman, even in cases when he (Kirk) was simply following orders and could not have anticipated the occurrence. He thought he should be able to handle EVERY possible contingency, that he should ALWAYS be in control; he couldn’t accept that there were no-win scenarios and that shit was inevitably going to happen. His refusal to accept defeat made him a better commander, it’s true, but it also made the job much harder for him. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/82 "2009-04-30T00:40:19Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > And the trap isn’t by the Klingons. Surely it is. Who else, the Romulans? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/83 "2009-04-30T00:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer;11090504He thought he should be able to handle EVERY possible contingency, that he should ALWAYS be in control;[/QUOTE] Well, yes. [Larry King]Caller, what is the question?[/Larry King] ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/84 "2009-04-30T01:14:12Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Interesting, especially since Kirk was based, in part, on Hornblower. 🙂 > [@constanze](#): > > I think I remember reading once that Roddenberry said this (before I had read Hornblower myself), and either he didn’t get Hornblower at all, or he had no control over Star Trek (which other accounts seem to contradict… But what makes Hornblower far more interesting to me is not only the physical problems, but his eternal self-doubts which we get to see from the narrators POV, and which Forrester set up deliberatly. He didn’t want a shining hero, because he didn’t believe that. Kirks attitude (apparently greatly influenced by Shatners own personality) of “I’m the hero, I’m right and save the day” is the complete anti-thesis to Hornblower’s character and Forrester’s style and beliefs.. I think it said in The Making Of Star Trek that it was actually Captain Pike in the original pilot that was based on Hornblower. You can see that he’s much more self-doubting than Kirk was. A lot of things were changed for the second pilot, including making the captain less of a Hornblower copy. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/85 "2009-04-30T02:08:47Z")
> [@glee](#): > > My point is that Sulu achieves the best possible result from the scenario. > He asks what the Kobayashi Maru is doing there, notes that the ‘freighter’ can’t be seen on scanners and refuses anyway to breach the Neutral Zone with a Constitution-class Starship as it would be an act of war. > He tries to contact the nearest Starfleet base to get Klingon permission to enter the Zone. > And avoids interstellar war! Except then, if the situation were really a “no-win” situation, the programming would state that the KM was not a decoy, but a real Federation ship, and the result of failing to rescue it turns out to be a backlash among Federation planets at the failure of the Federation’s fleet to rescue their own, especially after the crew of the KM are taken to the Klingon homeworld as spies and tortured, tried and sentenced to death. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/86 "2009-04-30T02:23:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I think it said in The Making Of Star Trek that it was actually Captain Pike in the original pilot that was based on Hornblower. You can see that he’s much more self-doubting than Kirk was. A lot of things were changed for the second pilot, including making the captain less of a Hornblower copy. I could see Pike as Hornblower rather than Kirk. > [@constanze](#): > > Where does it say it is a decoy ship? Doesn’t the KM vanish from scanners as soon as the Enterprise cross the neutral zone? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/87 "2009-04-30T02:27:01Z")
Hell, the second scene in which Pike appears (after the Bridge scene), he’s moping in his quarters, considering retirement! Kirk isn’t perfect. He’s impetuous, doesn’t always follow orders, and jumps on just about any halfway-attractive alien woman. For all that, he’s the guy I’d want in command in a crisis, with Spock and McCoy to advise him. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/88 "2009-04-30T03:31:52Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Where does it say it is a decoy ship? In the novel where Kirk passes the test by cheating, the simulation has the Kobayashi Maru turn out to be a real Federation ship in distress. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/89 "2009-04-30T04:32:05Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > If you start a war, there will be losses. But it’s very important to be the innocent side. So the Klingons would gain the righteousness of being attacked, even if they lost the first ship. Baloney. Each side in any war thinks that they are in the right and are justified in their cause. > [@constanze](#): > > The US soldiers in West Germany during the cold war could never have stopped 1 million Soviets in the Russian Army… Wanna bet? Why do you think we had tactical nukes all along the Western European borders? > [@constanze](#): > > So you would start an interplanetary war. Great. :rolleyes: Any treaty that fragile would be bound to be broken anyway, and by the description of the situation, the Klingons were just looking for a pretext to start a war anyway. Heck, border violations happen all the time. In 1960, a U.S. U-2 spy plane was shot down in Soviet airspace. This did not lead to war. In 1983, Korean Air Lines Flight 007 strayed into Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet fighters. This did not lead to war. In 2001, a U.S. P-3 reconnaissance plane collided with the Chinese fighter plane that was harassing it, crossed into Chinese airspace, and did an emergency landing in Chinese territory. This did not lead to war, either. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/90 "2009-04-30T09:16:20Z")
Been out of town, but thanks for all the interesting answers. I knew all outcomes would be bad, just wondering if there was a correct “character”, like don’t endanger your starship or peace treaties over rescue missions. Your replies have prompted me to pick up the book from the library!! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/91 "2009-04-30T13:41:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In the novel where Kirk passes the test by cheating, the simulation has the Kobayashi Maru turn out to be a real Federation ship in distress. I think the sim program will alter the true nature of the KM depending on the _Enterprise_’s captain’s decisions. If she decides to violate the treaty and rescue the KM, it will turn out to have been a decoy. The _Enterprise_ will be destroyed for naught. War may follow. Lessons learned: Klingons can be tricksy; not every rescue mission will prove worthwhile. If she decides to avert a war and not go to the KM’s aid, it will turn out to have been an actual Federation ship, the crew of which will helplessly fall into the cruel hands of the Klingons. The Starfleet captain’s career may be ruined; she will bear the shame and guilt of the KM’s loss to the end of her days. Lessons learned: sometimes bad things happen when you only play by the rules; you have a responsibility to protect even careless and/or stoopid civilians. A good captain will know when to play a hunch, and when to obey regs. By that yardstick, Kirk is a good captain - one of the best. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/92 "2009-04-30T14:59:24Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Where does it say it is a decoy ship? It was a possibility. I don’t recall the Saavik-Enterprise ever laying eyes on the vessel in distress. Also, not one, not two, but three Klingon cruisers are on hand to effect an intercept. Considering how vast space really is, that’s somewhat hard to accept as coincidence. For the puposes of the KM test, however, it doesn’t matter either way. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/93 "2009-04-30T15:10:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Ask, and ye shall receive (although none of these are very good-looking)! > > [http://shop.cafepress.com/item/kobayashi-maru-black-cap/268808242?cmp=pfc--f--us--065--268808242&utm\_source=froogle&utm\_medium=productfeed&utm\_term=268808242&utm\_campaign=black-cap](http://shop.cafepress.com/item/kobayashi-maru-black-cap/268808242?cmp=pfc--f--us--065--268808242&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=productfeed&utm_term=268808242&utm_campaign=black-cap) > [http://www.cafepress.com/queenvintage.268808237](http://www.cafepress.com/queenvintage.268808237) > [http://www.cafepress.com/dustbuster.220548561](http://www.cafepress.com/dustbuster.220548561) > > I also found these: > > [http://echosphere.net/star\_trek\_insp/insp\_kobayashi.jpg](http://echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_kobayashi.jpg) > [Google Image Result](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/ED-AE064_784jan_20060315191304.jpg&imgrefurl=http://kmaru.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html&usg=__oU0az2mgVVAtZfcI7sZEn7saFl0=&h=292&w=303&sz=22&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=R-cC9pCqfC2olM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522kobayashi%2Bmaru%2522%2Bhat%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG) > [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheKobayashiMaru?from=Main.DisastrousTrainingSimOpening](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheKobayashiMaru?from=Main.DisastrousTrainingSimOpening) Exactly. No cool caps with a KM logo. You can get a Nostromo cap for Pete’s sake. Thanks for your efforts. If I ever solve this pressing conundrum, I’ll let you know. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/94 "2009-04-30T15:42:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Did that happen to Jack Aubrey, also? I confuse those guys, although I’d rather serve with Aubrey who ran away from the 100 gun _Whatchamacallit_ in the small frigate \* Surprise,\* than Hornblower who would go after the Spanish Armada with a time machine, a whale boat with Bush to row and two flintlocks. 🙂 I don’t remember that happening to Aubrey, but I remember a situation that came close: Aubrey had been ordered by Admiral Harte, his cuckolded superior, specifically _not_ to fire on some French (or maybe Spanish – I read it a good while ago) ships that were docked at a port and carrying some valuable cargo. Lucky Jack tried repeatedly to lure the ships out to fire on him first, but they never quite took the bait. This put a serious dent in his crew’s confidence in him and even caused him to question whether he was becoming “shy.” Later, Aubrey was brought up before his superiors to explain why he hadn’t attacked. He pointed out that he had explicit orders not to, which Harted denied. Fortunately, Jack had had the foresight to demand _written_ orders at the outset, so he couldn’t be held responsible. It had been a setup by Harte to try to get Aubrey cashiered. RR ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/95 "2009-04-30T15:50:49Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > Aubrey had been ordered by Admiral Harte, his cuckolded superior, Not a good idea…I vaguely remember Jack describing his exam, but I may be confusing it with the Hornblower tale, or Jack helping some Midshipmen practice for theirs. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/96 "2009-04-30T21:56:41Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nah, that’s not the point. > > If you violate the Neutral Zone, you annoy the Klingons who attack your ship. :eek: > If you defend your ship, you start an interstellar war. :smack: > > Good leaders are not supposed to start interstellar wars (especially over a non-existant ship). > > The wise leader knows when to report, not take action by himself. If the Klingons are lying in wait, doesn’t that imply that they’ve already violated the neutral zone? And considering the Klingons will fire regardless of what actions you take, it’s the Klingons who start the interstellar war. Either way you look at it, the Klingons are trying to start/provoke a war. Doubly so if the KM is a decoy. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie, so I might be forgetting something. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/97 "2009-04-30T22:01:09Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > If the Klingons are lying in wait, doesn’t that imply that they’ve already violated the neutral zone? Yes, but that’s irrelevant. The cadet playing captain doesn’t definitely know about the Klingons’ presence until she takes the ship into verboten territory, and by that time it’s impossible to save the ship. Though I expect the Klingons are trying to look innocent in the eyes of the Organians. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/98 "2009-04-30T23:35:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > the Organians. l Who obviously became distracted long ago. Who awakened about noon with the most God awful headache…What was I drinking? I did _what!_ Perhaps they saw one of those ads by the fat chick…whats her name from _All In The Family_ and put all their efforts into giving their money to someone who gives 2% to cute, starving dirty children. Maybe Q beat them up and stole their lunch money. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/99 "2009-05-01T08:19:28Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Wanna bet? Why do you think we had tactical nukes all along the Western European borders? Um, the soldiers on the ground would have been killed when the Soviet tried to invade on foot, the nukes would be the answer to that. Yes, I know that the US “plan” for Europe was to turn it into a nuclear wasteland, but I was talking about why you had real soldiers guarding the frontier instead of nukes along farther at the back. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Any treaty that fragile would be bound to be broken anyway, and by the description of the situation, the Klingons were just looking for a pretext to start a war anyway. That’s a justification for you to violate a treaty that the Klingons were keeping - because it’s too fragile to last, you don’t even have to try? I’m really glad you weren’t in any position to cause damage during the Cold War. And mankind is very lucky that all those bloodhtirsty Russians were far more level-headed during different crisis (starting with the Cuba blockade and other events) when the US provoked them to not fire back. > [@](#): > > Heck, border violations happen all the time. In 1960, a U.S. U-2 spy plane was shot down in Soviet airspace. This did not lead to war. In 1983, Korean Air Lines Flight 007 strayed into Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet fighters. This did not lead to war. In 2001, a U.S. P-3 reconnaissance plane collided with the Chinese fighter plane that was harassing it, crossed into Chinese airspace, and did an emergency landing in Chinese territory. This did not lead to war, either. All thses examples were spy planes. It’s tacticly understood between enemy countries that planes that violate borders on secret spy missions can be shot down without impunity. Of course, it’s typical for the US to send a spy plane over a sovereign country and complain when it gets shot down. Wanna bet what the US would have done if the Soviets ever tried and sent a spy plane over US territory? Nuclear annihaltion, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590/100 "2009-05-01T08:28:06Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > If the Klingons are lying in wait, doesn’t that imply that they’ve already violated the neutral zone? If the neutral zone is meant as a buffer between Klingon and Fed. territory, then the Klingons can lie in wait on the Klingon side of the border, with the KM inside the neutral zone itself. It depends on how big the neutral zone is, and how far the KM is from the border to the Fed and the Klingon space, whether the Klingons can be there sooner from their border than the Enterprise from the Fed. border. > [@](#): > > And considering the Klingons will fire regardless of what actions you take, it’s the Klingons who start the interstellar war. you don’t know that and have no proof of it at all. > [@](#): > > Either way you look at it, the Klingons are trying to start/provoke a war. Doubly so if the KM is a decoy. Again, you have no proof and you don’t know that the Klingons are trying to start a war. Just because they are painteed as two-bit bad guys doesn’t mean you can automatically ascribe them certain motives out of lazyness/ black/white thinking. The KM could be a Fed spy ship, too, not a Klingon decoy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobayashi-maru-question-star-trek-ii/494590.md?page=6)