Kobayashi Maru question (Star Trek II)

[ElvisL1ves]

Anybody have a copy of the script that says just what Midshipman Kirk did? Or any corroboration that the simulator is (unrealistically) rigged to get the ship destroyed no matter what?
DSY, I’m a fan but not a cultist.

Now: There are all kinds of “no wins”, covering a wide range of consequences, aren’t there? Using the term indicates too narrow a focus…

Even if it’s true that the program inevitably causes the ship to get blown up, the CO still has to remember that the ship is part of a larger fleet serving a larger entity. If there’s a course of action that he plausibly believes will prevent a war, that it’s the only one that does, and that it requires sacrificing his ship and himself, that’s a “no win” for himself, yes, but still a “win” for the Federation he serves.

[dotchan]

As a casual fan of the series, I feel that the Kobayashi Maru scenario is a simulated false dilemma. The conclusion that Kirk came away with, for example, was that the computer is a cheating bastard, so it was alright for him to cheat right back.

(Yes, I know that the Kobayashi Maru is supposed to teach the point that there is a such thing as a no-win situation, but the way it tends to be done just frustrates the testee into attempting to subvert the situation to their advantage. Most situations have more than two options, and to varying degrees of “rightness” or “satisfaction”.)

[kenobi_65]

@ElvisL1ves

Anybody have a copy of the script that says just what Midshipman Kirk did?

Paraphrasing here: he reprogrammed it so it was possible to rescue the ship.

[simster]

@kenobi_65

Paraphrasing here: he reprogrammed it so it was possible to rescue the ship.

Right - and ‘possible’ does not neccisarily equal ‘easy’.

He didn’t believe in the no-win scenario, and there fore would not accept it.

as a test of Charactor - that is what he learned.

[kenobi_65]

Posting the relevant portions of the script, found here: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

[Beginning of the film, just after Saavik takes the Kobiyashi Maru test]

SAAVIK

(fights emotion) I don’t believe this was a fair test of my command abilities.

KIRK

And why not?

SAAVIK

Because… there was no way to win.

KIRK

A no-win situation is a possibility every commander may face. Has that never occurred to you?

SAAVIK

… No sir. It has not.

KIRK

How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn’t you say?

SAAVIK

(falters) As I indicated, Admiral, that thought had not occurred to me.

KIRK

Well, now you have something new to think about. Carry on.

---

[when Saavik confronts Kirk in the turbolift]

SAAVIK

(continuing) May I speak, sir?

KIRK

Self-expression doesn’t seem to be one of your problems. (pause) You’re bothered by your performance on the Kobayashi Maru.

SAAVIK

I failed to resolve the situation.

KIRK

There is no correct resolution. It’s a test of character.

SAAVIK

May I ask how you dealt with the test.

KIRK (amused) You may ask.

She starts.

KIRK

(continuing) That’s a little joke.

SAAVIK

Humor… It is a difficult concept… it is not logical…

---

[In the Genesis Cave]

SAAVIK

Sir? May I ask you a question.

KIRK

What’s on your mind, Lieutenant?

SAAVIK

The Kobayashi Maru, sir.

KIRK

Are you asking me if we’re playing out that scenario now, Lieutenant?

SAAVIK

On the test, sir. Will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.

Kirk looks at Bones, who smiles -

BONES

Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario -

SAAVIK

How?

KIRK

I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.

SAAVIK

WHAT?

DAVID

(laughs) He cheated!

KIRK

I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. (pause) I don’t like to lose.

SAAVIK

Then - you never faced that situation - faced death…

He picks up the communicator.

KIRK

I don’t believe in the no-win scenario.

[vd]

My memory could easily be faulty here, so correct me if this even sounds wrong.

I think in the non-canon novel it was something like Kirk programmed the Klingons to be so impressed by meeting the famous great warrior Captain Kirk that they surrender and maybe even offer assistance. All he needed to in the test was introduce himself.

[ElvisL1ves]

Thanks, kenobi. Okay, Kirk cheated, but that too is a demonstration of character. How the ability to dismiss reality and act in accordance with what you would prefer to be reality was judged by the Academy faculty as being *positive *traits makes for another discussion, though.

[Woeg]

@vd

My memory could easily be faulty here, so correct me if this even sounds wrong.

I think in the non-canon novel it was something like Kirk programmed the Klingons to be so impressed by meeting the famous great warrior Captain Kirk that they surrender and maybe even offer assistance. All he needed to in the test was introduce himself.

This is essentially what happened. Kirk defended this reprogramming by saying that the program did not take into account the emotional factor of reputation - the Klingons were a-scared of the big bad Kirk and thus backed down to let the rescue happen.

It’s a fun book, and I’m not usually fond of non-canon novels.

[simster]

@Woeg

This is essentially what happened. Kirk defended this reprogramming by saying that the program did not take into account the emotional factor of reputation - the Klingons were a-scared of the big bad Kirk and thus backed down to let the rescue happen.

It’s a fun book, and I’m not usually fond of non-canon novels.

problem with that is that Kirk was a cadet at that point - so he had no space cred to actually make that work - unless he added that to the simulation as well.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Uosdwis_R.Dewoh

It’s like forcing a student, who wants to go to buisness school, to take part in a highly convoluted rescue scenario involving bank robbers and explosions.

I see you’ve never applied to Harvard Business School.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Well, as a cadet, he wouldn’t ordinarily have been in command of a starship going to the rescue of the KM, either. He was only anticipating the interstellar fame that would surely be his in time.

[constanze]

@Uosdwis_R.Dewoh

This really episode really bothered me because Wesley was not applying for captain (a postion where life and death decisions come up), but to become a student at starfleet. How does putting a 17 year old through a stressfull life or death situation for a scholarship, in what is basically a regular university, even relevant? It’s like forcing a student, who wants to go to buisness school, to take part in a highly convoluted rescue scenario involving bank robbers and explosions.

I don’t know if this is the official explanation … but I wonder if this situation esp. was made for Wesley because of the psychological problems he had dealing with his fathers death? Didn’t he say, when discussing the test with one of his friends before/right after (it’s been some time since I saw the episode, so I’m not clear on the details) that he was scared he would freeze in an emergency?

Star Fleet Acadamy isn’t only studying books, it’s also practical stuff. And even if you don’t become a captain, but “only” a technican like Geordi or Scotty, or a red-shirt, people’s lives still depend on you not freezing in an emergency.

[constanze]

@kenobi_65

SAAVIK

Then - you never faced that situation - faced death…

He picks up the communicator.

KIRK

I don’t believe in the no-win scenario.

I think the dialogues you quoted spell out the concept pretty well: not only is it a test for the teachers to see the faults a student has, it’s a way for the student himself to deal with not being a glamorous hero who saves the day. It’s one thing sacrificing yourself for the Federation, it’s another to abandaon a hopeless ship for the sake of the treaty.

Note also that Kirk, didn’t learn to deal with death as a cadet, then is caught in this movie with Spock. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t believe in no-win. things still happen a certain way.

[Diz]

@constanze

I don’t know if this is the official explanation … but I wonder if this situation esp. was made for Wesley because of the psychological problems he had dealing with his fathers death? Didn’t he say, when discussing the test with one of his friends before/right after (it’s been some time since I saw the episode, so I’m not clear on the details) that he was scared he would freeze in an emergency?

Star Fleet Acadamy isn’t only studying books, it’s also practical stuff. And even if you don’t become a captain, but “only” a technican like Geordi or Scotty, or a red-shirt, people’s lives still depend on you not freezing in an emergency.

I just watched the episode not too long ago and I believe this is the correct explanation. It wasn’t supposed to be a test of leadership or decision making, but a psychological test about facing your greatest fear. Each of the candidates apparently faced different scenarios.

[Hypno-Toad]

@Diz

I just watched the episode not too long ago and I believe this is the correct explanation. It wasn’t supposed to be a test of leadership or decision making, but a psychological test about facing your greatest fear. Each of the candidates apparently faced different scenarios.

They would have to face different scenarios. Otherwise, cadets would know what was going on when they heard the name “Kobayashi Maru.”

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

There’s an interesting parallel to an episode in the Hornblower series of books. Very early on, in one of the short stories from ‘Mr. Midshipman Hornblower’, Hornblower sits his examination for Lieutenant. I don’t have my copy with me, so I’m paraphrasing the situation from memory, but his hypothetical ‘ship’ is in extreme peril, and with each second the situation becomes worse, making every hesitation or bad decision count against him. ‘You are losing leeway against the shore, and you have been dismasted.’ ‘Uhh, I would… Uhh’ ‘The enemy has carried away the rudder with a 10 pound ball.’

It would be an entertaining research project to determine if similar questions or scenarios are commonplace in Naval examinations.

[Voyager]

@ElvisL1ves

Thanks, kenobi. Okay, Kirk cheated, but that too is a demonstration of character. How the ability to dismiss reality and act in accordance with what you would prefer to be reality was judged by the Academy faculty as being *positive *traits makes for another discussion, though.

But Kirk was dealing with the higher level of reality, which was not limited to the simulation. I like the quoted bit of dialog since it sums up Kirk’s personality better than just about any other. His invention of Corbomite is actually fairly similar in a sense, in that he finds a solution outside the normal boundaries of the scenario.

[kenobi_65]

@Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela

There’s an interesting parallel to an episode in the Hornblower series of books.

Interesting, especially since Kirk was based, in part, on Hornblower.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Hypno-Toad

They would have to face different scenarios. Otherwise, cadets would know what was going on when they heard the name “Kobayashi Maru.”

I remember, in one of the novels, a Starfleet officer is doing a computerized search of the phrase “Kobayashi Maru.” He comes up with nothing. Starfleet apparently went to great lengths to keep the KM test, even its very existence, out of the public eye.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@HubZilla

At the beginning of Star Trek II, they had a no-win scenario. To summarize, a ship is caught in the neutral zone, and needs to be rescued.

1. If you don’t rescue it, the ship gets destroyed

2. If you try to rescue it, you violate treaty and get destroyed.

They later say it’s a test of character. So, you must be graded somehow, right? Is the more correct decision 1 or 2?

Does it show more character to do nothing or try to rescue and fail? I would think #1 would be the better bet in the big picture, since you’re not risking a treaty violation and perhaps the destruction of your ship and crew. While saving the one small ship is a noble gesture, and you don’t know the Klingons will show up (as Kirstie Allie didn’t), you’re still putting a lot at risk in the long run by bringing a warship in the neutral zone.

Or, will it reflect poorly on your character if you just watch the helpless ship get destroyed?

Without reading the thread…

I don’t think you get graded on what you achieve in the test, because that’s not the point of the test. The point of the test is to forcibly demonstrate to command candidates that there are some battles they are not going to be able to win, no matter how good you are, and if you can’t live with that, you’re setting yourself up for major problems.

And Kirk was entirely wrong to cheat, by the way. (By definition, I suppose.) He entirely missed the point.