# Kobe Bryant charged with felony sexual assault **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476 "2003-07-18T21:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/61 "2003-07-22T16:27:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* [Here](http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Suicide_and_mental_illness_explained?OpenDocument) Sucide and mental illness in young people…Now what? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/62 "2003-07-22T16:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by holmes \* > \*\*[Here](http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Suicide_and_mental_illness_explained?OpenDocument) Sucide and mental illness in young people…Now what? \*\* All it says is that some people who attempt suicide are depressed. SFW? It doesn’t say that _all_ people who attempt suicide are mentally ill as you asserted. Also, there is no correlation between depression and personal character. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/63 "2003-07-22T16:50:20Z")
I don’t think your cite makes your point. It only indicates the percentage of people _diagnosed with mental illness_ who commit suicide (6%), or attempt suicide (30 times for every successful suicide?). An _impulsive, isolated_ suicide attempt during an _exogenous_ depression, related to a culmination of major life stresses (leaving home for school, losing boyfriend, death of a loved one, etc.), is not the same diagnosis as endogenous or chronic depression, bipolar disorder, etc. The testimony of the consulted psychs from both sides will give us more info. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/64 "2003-07-22T16:52:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cowgirl \* > \*\*See, the problem with arguments that assault the character of the alleged victim is that they assume what DtC keeps yelling to the hills: that people with characteristic X can’t be raped. > > For instance, using this argument, if you could find someone that attempted suicide (or has whatever characteristic X is) you could go and fuck her, with impunity, since she _can’t be raped_ and no jury would convict you. Basically denying such people the right to say “no” to sex. I don’t believe that any woman should be denied this right, no matter how “crazy” or “attention-seeking” she is, or if she’s promiscious, or had sex with him already, or if she thought she might want to but changed her mind, or whatever. > > I firmly believe that these kinds of character traits should not be involved in the trial. Look at the evidence as it is, presume the man innocent until proven guilty, but for goodness sake, don’t put the woman’s previous history on trial. It has nothing to do with the case at hand, and is permitted _only_ because of the assumption that some kinds of women can’t be raped, or don’t have the right to say no. > > Please, honestly consider what your thoughts would be if someone you cared about had a mental illness, and was raped. Would you disbelieve her because of her mental illness? Would you think that the illness justified the rape? > > It’s easy for us to sit here and look “objectively” at the situation and conclude that she is nothing more than a loony attention-seeker and therefore must be lying. But think about the implications this has for women in general. > > It’s a very hard question because you do need to balance with the rights of the accused, and sometimes men _are_ falsely accused of rape. I don’t know the statistics (maybe one of you does?) but I am fairly certain that the frequency of women falsely alleging rape, and putting themselves under the scrutiny and criticism that will result (from people such as yourselves, and the media, and so on) is much much smaller than many would have us believe. > > **Boo** - you say race will be a factor - what race is the accuser? \*\* There is no real physical evidence in cases like this, save they had sex. Unless he drugged her or beat the crap out of her, it’s a matter of perceptions. Why don’t you and the others imagine your son being accused of a rape he swears he didn’t do and the victim has a history of mental illness. Are you telling me you WOULDN’T tell the defense attorney to bring that up in court? You would allow your son to go to prison on the word of a person with a history of a least one attempted suicide? Your heart may bleed that much but not mine. I don’t know about anyone else, but I have said several times, that mental illness doesn’t prevent women from being honest or a victims of crime. But hear I am again being accused of saying that. All that people seem to want is this PC world of “fairness”, well it ain’t gonna happen. I’m not about to be a pollyanna and ignore the very real fact that she MAY be unstable. This has nothing to do with women in general and yes quite often women inmates, Really mentally ill women, hookers and even wives are raped and are ignored because of their station in life and it sucks. In such cases, hopefully the evidence will support their claims. However call me insensitive, but I’m not going to take the word of a crack hooker over that of an honest working stiff, who until that moment has lead a perfect life. Unless the evidence says differently. What REAL evidence is there that Kobe forced this girl? If there is no evidence, then what? Who do you believe and why? Why do you automatically assume that she’s telling the truth? Because the of the rarity of false accusations? You see I’m not assuming anything, I think they BOTH have serious credibility issues…but people seem to only have a problem with me mentioning the girl having them. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/65 "2003-07-22T17:04:55Z")
**…but I’m not going to take the word of a crack hooker over that of an honest working stiff…** Interesting choice, since neither applies in this situation. Crack hooker? Honest? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/66 "2003-07-22T17:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no real physical evidence in cases like this, save they had sex. Unless he drugged her or beat the crap out of her, it’s a matter of perceptions. Actually there are reports of vaginal tearing, torn clothes, and screams being heard from Kobe’s room by other hotel guests. There have NOT been any reports that the accuser had a “history of mental illness.” A suicide attempt doesn’t qualify. > [@](#): > > Why do you automatically assume that she’s telling the truth? Because the of the rarity of false accusations? You see I’m not assuming anything, I think they BOTH have serious credibility issues…but people seem to only have a problem with me mentioning the girl having them. I have yet to see a credibility issue on the part of the accuser and I haven’t assumed that she’s telling the truth. I have said repeatedly that _I don’t know_ what happened and that we should refrain from smearing either party until we know the evidence. I also think that the accuser’s prior mental history is remotely relevant. I doubt it will even be admitted at trial. The defense is just trying to influence a jury pool with irrelevant garbage before they get selected. I notice that the prosecution has thus far refrained from doing the same thing to Kobe even though they could. Does anyone seriously believe that this was the first time Kobe ever cheated on his wife? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/67 "2003-07-22T17:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Actually there are reports of vaginal tearing, torn clothes, and screams being heard from Kobe’s room by other hotel guests. > > There have NOT been any reports that the accuser had a “history of mental illness.” A suicide attempt doesn’t qualify. > > I have yet to see a credibility issue on the part of the accuser and I haven’t assumed that she’s telling the truth. I have said repeatedly that _I don’t know_ what happened and that we should refrain from smearing either party until we know the evidence. > > I also think that the accuser’s prior mental history is remotely relevant. I doubt it will even be admitted at trial. The defense is just trying to influence a jury pool with irrelevant garbage before they get selected. > > I notice that the prosecution has thus far refrained from doing the same thing to Kobe even though they could. Does anyone seriously believe that this was the first time Kobe ever cheated on his wife? \*\* Please, do you really think there won’t be a “Hard Copy” or “National Enquirer” with the women of Kobe? Until it’s entered as evidence, those reports are no more evidence than the girl’s mental history…not to beat a dead horse…but you don’t know why she tried to commit suicide and in the cite you called me on, a certain percentage of suicide attempts were done by mentally ill people…she may be one. And yes we should wait. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/68 "2003-07-22T17:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by annaplurabelle \* > \*\ ***…but I’m not going to take the word of a crack hooker over that of an honest working stiff…** > > Interesting choice, since neither applies in this situation. Crack hooker? Honest? \*\* Way to pull things out of context…the context being how does one chose when the evidence is a matter of personal character…which does apply to this situation. Of course i noticed you didn’t answer whether or not, you would encourage the defense to bring up a victims pass, if you and yours were on the line. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/69 "2003-07-22T17:38:01Z")
_Quote:_ **It’s a very hard question because you do need to balance with the rights of the accused, and sometimes men are falsely accused of rape. I don’t know the statistics (maybe one of you does?) but I am fairly certain that the frequency of women falsely alleging rape, and putting themselves under the scrutiny and criticism that will result (from people such as yourselves, and the media, and so on) is much much smaller than many would have us believe.** Percentage of false rape accusations, according to Cynthia Stone, media coordinator for the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault: **2.5%**. No more than for most felonies. [http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN\_15\_2096156,00.html](http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2096156,00.html) BTW, A “Court of Public Opinion” covering this case will be featured on NBC’s Dateline, tonight 10pm EDT. ---
**Author:** ![hilltopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hilltopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hilltopper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/70 "2003-07-22T17:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Actually there are reports of vaginal tearing, torn clothes, and screams being heard from Kobe’s room by other hotel guests. > > \*\* Do you have a cite? > [@](#): > > I also think that the accuser’s prior mental history is remotely relevant. I doubt it will even be admitted at trial. The defense is just trying to influence a jury pool with irrelevant garbage before they get selected. What makes you think the defence planted this? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/71 "2003-07-22T17:45:54Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no real physical evidence in cases like this, save they had sex. Unless he drugged her or beat the crap out of her, it’s a matter of perceptions. Or if her clothing was torn, or if witnesses heard screams, or if she shows physical signs of struggle. > [@](#): > > Why don’t you and the others imagine your son being accused of a rape he swears he didn’t do and the victim has a history of mental illness. Are you telling me you WOULDN’T tell the defense attorney to bring that up in court? Yep, that’s what I’m telling you. > [@](#): > > You would allow your son to go to prison on the word of a person with a history of a least one attempted suicide? I believe I said above that other evidence should be used. He said/she said is very hard to decide, yes, but in cases like this there _is_ other evidence. > [@](#): > > In such cases, hopefully the evidence will support their claims. However call me insensitive, but I’m not going to take the word of a crack hooker over that of an honest working stiff, who until that moment has lead a perfect life. And what in the world does that have to do with the case at hand? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/72 "2003-07-22T17:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by holmes \* > \*\*Way to pull things out of context…the context being how does one chose when the evidence is a matter of personal character…which does apply to this situation. > > Of course i noticed you didn’t answer whether or not, you would encourage the defense to bring up a victims pass, if you and yours were on the line. \*\* Sorry, I’m not trying to distort your meaning or context. But if the context is personal character, shouldn’t the example apply to the case at hand? Your example showed bias, even if unintentional. I wouldn’t need to encourage the defense to bring up the victim’s past. It’s standard procedure in cases like this - a way of trying to overcome the Rape Shield Law, which protects the accuser’s past history from admission, _unless_ a pattern of unstable behaviour can be shown. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/73 "2003-07-22T17:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cowgirl \* > \*\*Or if her clothing was torn, or if witnesses heard screams, or if she shows physical signs of struggle. > \*\* What if that evidence can be explained away? We were so hot for each other we tore off each other’s clothes. The witnesses can’t be sure where the screams came from and the physical signs of struggle are inconclusive. This is a difficult case to try. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cowgirl \*\*\* > And what in the world does that have to do with the case at hand? \*\* It has to do with this: > [@](#): > > **cowgirl** I firmly believe that these kinds of character traits should not be involved in the trial. Look at the evidence as it is, presume the man innocent until proven guilty, but for goodness sake, don’t put the woman’s previous history on trial. It has nothing to do with the case at hand, and is permitted only because of the assumption that some kinds of women can’t be raped, or don’t have the right to say no. i was simply pointing out in an extreme case, that a person’s history must be consider in this type of case…if the evidence is weak. How do you judge? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/74 "2003-07-22T18:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by annaplurabelle \* > \*\*Sorry, I’m not trying to distort your meaning or context. But if the context is personal character, shouldn’t the example apply to the case at hand? Your example showed bias, even if unintentional. > > I wouldn’t need to encourage the defense to bring up the victim’s past. It’s standard procedure in cases like this - a way of trying to overcome the Rape Shield Law, which protects the accuser’s past history from admission, _unless_ a pattern of unstable behaviour can be shown. \*\* No it didn’t as i was responding to \*\*cowgirl[b/]: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by cowgirl \* > [B"I firmly believe that these kinds of character traits should not be involved in the trial. Look at the evidence as it is, presume the man innocent until proven guilty, but for goodness sake, don’t put the woman’s previous history on trial. It has nothing to do with the case at hand, and is permitted only because of the assumption that some kinds of women can’t be raped, or don’t have the right to say no."_\* I was simply using the extreme example of a woman who society considers ‘unrapeble’ and the reasons why in this type of case, history must be used…if there is no conclusive physical evidence either way. Who do you believe? I’m sorry but I see bias on the other side too, it seems that the woman is to be believed not matter what…because “why would she lie?” And don’t think I wouldn’t put the man’s history on the line too. I don’t understand how you can possibly have a fair trial in this type of case, without physical evidence. I need to see a pattern of behaviour on either side to make an honest jugdement. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/75 "2003-07-22T18:12:12Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by hilltopper \* \*\*Do you have a cite? I saw it on the Rita Cosby show on Fox News over the weekend. It was in an interview with friends of the accuser. I don’t know how to finf transcripts for FNC shows but here’s something from [FreeRepublic](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/949265/posts?page=301) FWIW. > [@](#): > > \*\*What makes you think the defence planted this? \*\* It didn’t come from the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/76 "2003-07-22T18:16:22Z")
If evidence of mental unbalance or a history of attention seeking is introduced at trial, it’s important to understand what it’s being used for. It’s not being used to show that the alleged victim was a member of class x and that members of class x are incapable of being raped, or to “punish the victim” for having made the allegations, or to blame the victim, etc. It’s being introduced becuase its relevant evidence pertaining to her credibility and motives. Certain things as a matter of law cannot be introduced; if the state follows the Federal Rules of Evidence (and most all do) you can’t introduce evidence of sexual promiscuity on the part of the alleged victim, but within those limitations, the accused has every right to put on evidence that might pertain to the untruthfulness of the alleged victim. It’s unthinkable to most people that someone would do something as vile as accuse someone else of a rape that didn’t occur, but it can’t be unthinkable to present evidence that that might be what is happening to the jury. For whatever reason, false accusations happen. Before I had any experience with family law I expressed shock and disbelief to my Dad (who does a lot of it) that spouses would falsely accuse each other of child molestation in a divorce proceeding. He laughed. It’s regrettable that trials traumatize legitimate victims of crime, but criminal trials are as serious as serious gets. This guy is looking at a maximum of life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/77 "2003-07-22T18:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I saw it on the Rita Cosby show on Fox News over the weekend. It was in an interview with friends of the accuser. I don’t know how to finf transcripts for FNC shows but here’s something from FreeRepublic FWIW. > \*\* DtC and you consider 3 friends on a talk show credible evidence? No let’s not smear. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/78 "2003-07-22T18:22:00Z")
**I was simply using the extreme example of a woman who society considers ‘unrapeble’ and the reasons why in this type of case, history must be used…** I don’t want to start a semantics war over the term “unrape-able”, so I’ll assume you meant “a person who has exhibited a _pattern_ of unstable behaviour”. Ultimately, the judge decides what is admissable, based on pre-trial motions, psych consults, etc. But as **DtheC** said, leaking to the media affects the perception of the potential jury pool, regardless of whether or not the information is eventually admitted. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/79 "2003-07-22T18:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I was simply using the extreme example of a woman who society considers ‘unrapeble’ and the reasons why in this type of case, history must be used…if there is no conclusive physical evidence either way. Who do you believe? All women can be raped, even prostitutes. If “society” thinks a prostitute is “unrapeable” then society is ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476/80 "2003-07-22T18:31:58Z")
The defense must be able to present evidence pertaining to the credibility of the accuser, because very often the evidence is inconclusive and credibility is everything. However, I haven’t seen anything in this case that is relevant to the accuser’s credibility. The chain from attempted suicide, to mental illness, to false accusations, is nonexistant. If I was the judge, I would not allow that reasoning by the defense at the trial. Also, while it is possible that the leaks are the work of the defense, you should remember that the leaks could be very bad for Kobe. The woman is highly thought of in this closely knit community, and it is very possible that the community will get mad about the attacks on her character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kobe-bryant-charged-with-felony-sexual-assault/189476.md?page=5)