Yes, RickJay is correct. My friend was a ASL interpreter. She watched the videos and said that while Koko was indeed using some “words” for things like “banana”, the idea that Koko was making complete sentences was entirely in the eyes of Patterson.
Koko never learned to sign. She did make some signs, but that’s not the same thing.
Like saying that I know how to read, when all I can do is recognize the three words “cat”, “dog”, and “boy”. Yes, reports of her skill level really were stretched THAT much. She never had a conversation. She never made a real sentence. Most importantly, she never showed any evidence of “getting it”. Watching human children learn language, you can really tell that at first they don’t get it, and then they DO get it and everything changes.
I suspect that Koko and the signing chimpanzees like Washoe were using signs in the same way they would use natural gestures in the wild. That is, in a fairly ambiguous way, but in a way that encourages bonding within the group or communicates a few basic desires or concepts.
Wild chimpanzees do use sounds and gestures according to some studies, but researchers are ‘disappointed’ with the results.
A problem with animal rights is the lack of reciprocity, or the lack of ability to enter a social contract with them. Say, you and me are stranded on a desert island. In most situations, we will probably refrain from killing and eating one another; and moreover, I can count on you recognizing my right to live just as much as I do yours. We mutually recognize each other’s rights, and our respecting of said rights is contingent on this recognition.
Now, if I were stranded on a desert island with a lion, things would be very different. If I expected the lion to grant my right to live, I would be a fool, and in all likelihood, soon a dead fool. But then, the basis on which I respect the lion’s rights can’t be the same as that on which I respect another human’s rights, since that mutual understanding upon which we build mutual observation of each other’s rights just isn’t there. We can’t enter into an implicit contract of observing one another’s rights.
So, animal’s rights are necessarily on a different basis as human rights. That doesn’t mean that there are no such rights (indeed, I believe there are), but it does mean that we have to find new ground on which to base them.
The problem with a discussion like this is that a lot of the terms people are throwing around are poorly defined, and most of them are relative. For instance, is Koko intelligent? I feel quite confident in saying that she’s more intelligent than a horse, which in turn is more intelligent than a cow, which is more intelligent than a fish, which is more intelligent than an earthworm, which is more intelligent than a sponge, but on the other hand she’s less intelligent than a human. Other comparisons, like gorilla vs. African grey parrot vs. octopus vs. dolphin, could in principle also be made, but with much more difficulty. But how far up that scale of intelligence does an animal need to be before we consider it “intelligent”? Nor is intelligence necessarily one trait: For instance, there are exactly two species on the planet which understand the concept of pointing. One of them is widely regarded as the most intelligent species, but nobody would claim that dogs are the second-most-intelligent.
And it just gets even worse when we talk about, say, “self-awareness”. What do we mean by that?
Allow me to replace my broken post; you ARE anthropomorphizing them, at least a little.
Of course dogs and cats have emotions. There is not a doubt in my mind my dog loves me, and that he loves my wife more than he loves me. My dog is visibly happy sometimes and excited sometimes, or sad, or scared. But I think it’s folly to think Benny has the same emotions we do, or all the emotions we do. How a dog feels love is likely vastly, vastly different, almost incomprehensibly different, to the ways you do. I would imagine a dog’s love is somewhat closer to an eighteen-month-old child than it is to a grown adult (if you think of it that way, a dog’s reactions often suddenly seem remarkably familiar) and even then it’s different. I also have my doubts that a dog feels mercy at all, or feels hate the way a human can. (Neat article here.) Empathy is probably limited, but again, we’re just guessing. And a cat is quite a bit further from a human than a dog is; dogs, at least, are social animals like humans. Cats are not, and I really don’t think my cat’s emotions are much like mine at all.
Emotions are the product of evolution, and cats and dogs didn’t evolve like us and have no reason to have the same emotions as us. They do have feelings and so should be treated with decency and respect, but they aren’t the same, and I honestly do not believe they’re as close to us as we sometimes like to believe.
This is a weird distinction.
Your dog feels emotions just like you do. Not “vastly” or “incomprehensibly” different.
We are all mammals, distantly related genetically. The mammalian brain has common features across all mammals same as we have the same morphology (four limbs, five digits on each limb, two eyes, two nostrils, two ears, a tail, two lungs, two kidneys, a liver, etc.).
Ever wonder why you can instantly recognize your dog’s emotional state at a glance? It’s because Benny feels and expresses emotions much the same as you do. It is not exactly the same, of course, but you have no problem getting it (e.g. Benny can move his ears to convey an emotional state…you [probably] can’t). What’s more, Benny can assess your mood too. Who taught Benny to know when you are sad or angry?
Of course, Benny cannot ponder on his emotional state the same as you can but his feelings of love and fear and happiness are easily akin to those same feelings in you.
And as for hate I recall seeing a documentary on lions in Africa and the war they fight with hyenas. They do not hunt each other for food but they will take an opportunity to kill each other when they get a chance. Watching it you got a distinct feeling that they really, really do not like each other which seems like hate to me.
Do they view each other as competitors? Are Hyenas are scavengers?
But there are some humans with less intelligence than Koko.
Is “intelligence” really a useful guidepost to help us decide what beings desere rights and what beings do not? I say no.
Maybe we over anthropomorphise humans to some extent.
Like I read an article where it said dog’s don’t feel guilty, they’re just reacting to your anger by giving placating gestures like looking away with their ears held back.
But is that really very different from what humans are doing? Sure, we maybe have a deeper thought process about it but is guilt not is the realisation someone is upset with you and an attempt to placate it?
I agree! A gorilla’s reaction to winning a fight – strutting, arms raised, loud vocalizations – is identical to humans cheering when their team scores. Their reactions to losing – slumping, covering faces, etc. – is also similar to ours.
We give ourselves a lot of credit for mannerisms that are essentially hardwired.
But one can feel guilt even without anyone being upset with you.
If a dog does something bad, and nobody is around (except video cameras), would someone be able to tell the dog felt guilty by watching the dog on video?
Spotted Hyenas are actually far more efficient predators than lions. They have a higher percentage of kills/hunts( they’re pack hunters and hyena clans can be quite large )and eat a smaller proportion of scavenged/stolen food than lions. They’re quite opportunistic, but the widely spread notion they are primarily scavengers( and cowardly )is a myth.
So yes, direct competitors. But lions will kill any large predator they encounter just as a matter of course. There is no particular “hatred.” If hyenas and lions get into dust-ups more often it is because spotted hyenas are probably the only animals capable of tangling with them on closer to equal terms and thus are far more likely to challenge them. A lone cheetah or leopard has zero chance - they can only flee. A pack of African wild dogs might have some numbers but no size at 40-60 lbs - they probably can’t really seriously hurt a lion, though they might harry a lone individual to defend pups or a kill.
Spotted hyenas are hefty at 90-140 lbs and a clan of 30-80 is quite capable of intimidating a few separated lions( but not necessarily a large pride ). If lions are de facto the #1 predator in Africa just based on size, strength and social structure, spotted hyenas are easily the #2.
You really can’t know this. Even the emotions you think you are recognizing, you really may be misinterpreting. Roughly analogous, perhaps. But probably not identical. I’m much more inclined to agree with RickJay here. A lot of higher animals can feel emotions of some sort, but how our emotions work are intimately tied into our capacity to reason. And even the smartest non-human animals are a lot more limited than we are in that department.
I do believe your dog loves you, but I really don’t believe it loves you like you love it.
Does everyone agree that rights come from the ability to reason and not the capacity to suffer?
Well when humans can treat all other humans with respect that all humans deserve then we can work on the animals.
There are several errors that we can fall into. One is believing that animals are nothing like us. Another is believing that animals are just like us. Another is believing that other humans are just like us, and another is believing that other humans are different from us.
Lots of actual humans don’t feel the same way I do about things, they don’t act the same way I do, they don’t have the same values I do. And yet they’re not alien beings either. Even when I wouldn’t do what they do, I often understand why they do what they do, even though I wouldn’t do it. Same thing with animals. A dog is not just a four-legged toddler in a fur coat. It’s also not an automaton. Except when it sometimes is, and sometimes humans are automatons too.
We often don’t understand ourselves, much less other humans, much less non-human animals. So broad declarations about what animals and people are really like should be given with some humility.