# Koran Translations... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889 "2007-09-03T09:45:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![b\_wad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@b\_wad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b_wad)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/1 "2007-09-03T09:45:03Z")
I keep hearing that the people who think the Koran promotes killing is due to mis translation. every translation (8) that I have read all called for killing. To live among the infidels till you are strong enough to kill them. I have seen videos of mosques calling for suicide bombers and maryter’s. I have seen children talking how they want to die for allah. then I hear tpeople counter hat the christians killed in the inquisitons and promoted war… but that does not fly because the New Testament, which overides the Old clearly states thou shall not kill, and love thy neighbor. So IO guess its ok to allow islamic teachings of killing since the christians did it thousands of years ago and have denounced it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/2 "2007-09-03T09:55:43Z")
I’ve seen things… you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire of the shoulder of Orion… …C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate… All those moment will be lost in time… like tears in rain. Time to die. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/3 "2007-09-03T10:57:13Z")
\ \ \ \ If you’ve read the Koran 8 times, in 8 different translations, why don’t you just buck up, learn Arabic, and figure out what the damn thing actually says? And the actions of the practitioners of an established religion rarely have much to do with the guidelines and tenets of that faith. At least, they’re not necessarily representative. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Hell, go ahead and hate the sinner. Just don’t hate the sinner’s relatives, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/4 "2007-09-03T11:32:17Z")
I like the illustrated “A Child’s First Koran” with all the fuzzy animals brandishing scimitars. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/5 "2007-09-03T15:19:22Z")
[QUOTE=b\_wad] then I hear tpeople counter hat the christians killed in the inquisitons and promoted war.. but that does not fly because the New Testament, which overides the Old clearly states thou shall not kill, and love thy neighbor. So IO guess its ok to allow islamic teachings of killing since the christians did it thousands of years ago and have denounced it. 🆒 [/QUOTE] My history and theology are both shaky, but I’m quite sure that the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition both went on since the New Testament was written. Which would make the Christian deathmongers worse in my mind, as they would be murderous _hypocrites_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/6 "2007-09-03T15:34:58Z")
Who is it that’s “allowing” Islamic teachings of killing? I mean, promoting violence is a crime itself (in some places). People have in fact been arrested for it. As far as the OT and the NT go… if the OT totally overrides the NT, why is the OT still part of the Bible? It’s superfluous, if that’s true. And I would suggest that some Christians do not share your view of the OT. I’m sure others will suggest the famous names. Anyway, there’s a possibility (IIRC) that a translation (yay irony!) of the Bible would render that particular commandment as “thou shall not _murder_”, rather than kill. Certainly I have known Christians who believe that killing is wrong but unfortunetly must be done in certain circumstances. I mean, if they didn’t, no Christian would ever kill another person, which seems somewhat unlikely. As to the actual basic question… I have no idea, not knowing Arabic. But I would guess it probably does promote killing. It’s possible it may promote killing more than the Bible. To which I would say… well, so? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/7 "2007-09-03T15:38:32Z")
It’s a holy book. Of _course_ it’s full of killing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/8 "2007-09-03T16:02:17Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Anyway, there’s a possibility (IIRC) that a translation (yay irony!) of the Bible would render that particular commandment as “thou shall not _murder_”, rather than kill. [/QUOTE] [Good call](http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html) > [@](#): > > The commandment “thou shall not kill” (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean “you shall not murder,” most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way. According to the Bible not all killing, the taking of a life, is murder. Murder is the unlawfully taking of human life. In this type of discussion we have to bear in mind that the Koran is supposed to be interpreted in the light of the life of the Prophet - hence the hadiths. This is what the English translation of the surviving accounts of the earliest biography of mohammed say. Or this account of what this source says it says. [Islam & violence](http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Terrorism/islam_and_violence.html) > [@](#): > > In the constitution of Medina, whom prophet wrote when he and his followers migrated from Mecca in the year 622, we read, “A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever, nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer … Believers are friends one to the other to the exclusion of outsiders … The believers must avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of God” (p. 232). > > The first in the series of assassinations that the prophet ordered was an old Jewish man named Ibnu’l-Ashraf. His crime was writing poetry against Muslims. “The apostle said, ‘Who will rid me of Ibnu’l-Ashraf?’” One of his followers volunteered said, “I will deal with him for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him.” And the prophet responded by saying, “Do so if you can.” The prophet also explicitly gave his assassins permission to lie and use trickery in order to accomplish their mission. The report goes on to describe how the prophet’s followers deceived the old man out of his house in the middle of the night and jumped on him with swords and daggers and brutally murdered him. After completing their mission, the followers reported back to the prophet that they “had killed God’s enemy.” The author concludes this incident by writing, “Our attack upon God’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life” (pp. 367-368). > > In the very next incident in this biography of prophet Muhammad we read, “The apostle said, ‘Kill any Jew that falls into your power.’” The author then recounts the story of two brothers, the younger one of which was a Muslim. Upon hearing this command, the younger Muslim brother kills a Jewish merchant. The older brother became very critical of the action of his younger sibling. In response the younger brother says, “Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.” The older brother exclaimed. " ‘By God, a religion which can bring you to this is marvelous!’ and he became a Muslim" (p. 369). > > In one of the battles, after one of prophet Muhammad’s uncles was savagely killed, Muhammad became so angry that he said, “If God gives me victory over Quraysh in the future I will mutilate 30 of their men.” Seeing the grief of their prophet, Muhammad’s followers claimed, “By God, if God give us victory over them in the future we will mutilate them as no Arab has ever mutilated anyone.” Thankfully, the prophet had a change of mind and later decided to forbid mutilation. (p. 387) > > In another famous incident with Jewish people, after having already expelled two Jewish tribes from the city of Medina, the prophet orchestrated the execution of all the adult males of the last Jewish tribe of the city, and the taking of all the property and the women and children. The Muslim sources put the number of the Jewish men who were beheaded in one day anywhere between 600 to 900. (p. 464) > > On another occasion, the prophet and his companions were looking for the hidden treasure of a conquered tribe. An individual was brought to Muhammad who was supposed to know where the hidden treasure was located. The prophet threatened to kill the individual if he did not tell the Muslims where the treasure was. Upon refusal to cooperate, “The apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam, ‘Torture him until you extract what he has,’ so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head” (p. 515). > > Upon conquering Mecca, a number of individuals were ordered to be killed by the prophet without any immunity. The crimes committed by the majority of these people were making “satirical songs” against Muhammad or having insulted him during his ministry in Mecca (p. 551). One person who was fortunate enough to be pardoned was Abdullah b. Sa’d. “The reason he [Muhammad] ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh.” Since Abdullah was a foster brother of a close companion of Muhammad, he was able to receive a hearing from the prophet and ask for immunity. The prophet unwillingly granted the immunity. After the pardoned person left, Muhammad said to his companions “‘I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head!’ One of the Ansar said, ‘Then why didn’t you give me a sign, O apostle of God?’ He answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing’” (p. 550). > > To one of his commanders whom the prophet was sending on an “expedition”, he gave this advice, “Fight everyone in the way of God and kill those who disbelieve in God. Do not be deceitful with the spoil; do not be treacherous, nor mutilate, nor kill children. This is God’s ordinance and the practice of his prophet among you” (p. 672). > > Another assassination ordered by the prophet was regarding his uncle Abu Sufyan, the leader of the pagan opposition in Mecca. Muslim volunteers traveled to Mecca to carry out this mission. The assassination attempt failed, however. On the way back to Medina, one of the followers of the prophet encountered a one-eyed shepherd who confidently claimed that he would never accept Islam. We pick up the account from the Muslim assassin himself. As soon as the man was “asleep and snoring I got up and killed him in a more horrible way than any man has been killed. I put the end of my bow in his sound eye, then I bore down on it until I forced it out at the back of his neck … When I got to Medina … the apostle asked my news and when I told him what had happened he blessed me” (pp. 674-675). Mohammed was a warrior as well as, when it suited him, a man of peace. Peaceful when he had the upper hand. There’s also the question of whether the ‘nasty’ sword verses abrogate the ‘play nice’ parts of the Koran. Muslim Mileage differs on this. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/9 "2007-09-03T16:03:56Z")
Let’s just note that there’s a different between promoting and depicting. Swaths of the OT is simply a history book of the Jewish people. So while it does depict war and killing, those are just historical events. I don’t believe that there’s anywhere in the Christian bible that outright says you should murder or kill people, except criminals. But as I haven’t read the Koran, I couldn’t say how it holds up in that regard. I have heard that it specifically commands spreading Islam by the sword, but I have no idea if that’s true. (Is it?) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/10 "2007-09-03T16:11:43Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Let’s just note that there’s a different between promoting and depicting. Swaths of the OT is simply a history book of the Jewish people. So while it does depict war and killing, those are just historical events. I don’t believe that there’s anywhere in the Christian bible that outright says you should murder or kill people, except criminals. But as I haven’t read the Koran, I couldn’t say how it holds up in that regard. I have heard that it specifically commands spreading Islam by the sword, but I have no idea if that’s true. (Is it?) [/QUOTE] Yes it does (and the 'holy book of varieties of Islam are Koran + Hadiths. Hadiths can differ by sect). But there are also the added complication of non linearity of the text so it is difficult to know which sura’s abrogate which. The sword verses are held by some to abrogate the ‘play nice’ verses. ---
**Author:** ![b\_wad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@b\_wad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b_wad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/11 "2007-09-04T00:57:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diomedes] \ \ \ \ If you’ve read the Koran 8 times, in 8 different translations, why don’t you just buck up, learn Arabic, and figure out what the damn thing actually says? And the actions of the practitioners of an established religion rarely have much to do with the guidelines and tenets of that faith. At least, they’re not necessarily representative. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Hell, go ahead and hate the sinner. Just don’t hate the sinner’s relatives, you know? [/QUOTE] well.. the muslims I now do not deny the preaching of killing. however some of them like american life and lean towards keeping the society going. they do say thier mosques preach the killing !! ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/12 "2007-09-04T02:29:22Z")
[QUOTE=b\_wad] I keep hearing that the people who think the Koran promotes killing is due to mis translation. every translation (8) that I have read all called for killing. [/quote] Guess it depends what you mean by that. The Koran does say it’s okay to kill depending on the circumstances. I think what bothers many moderate Muslims are things taken out of context. For instance, many use this sura as evidence that Muslims the Koran says that Muslims _should kill unbelievers wherever they find them_. > [@](#): > > 004.089 > YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks But it does specify _if the turn renegades_ and then the immediate following sura says this: > [@](#): > > 004.090 > YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). It specifically says not to kill those who aren’t fighting you. [QUOTE=b\_wad] To live among the infidels till you are strong enough to kill them. [/quote] Where’s you get that from? Are you claiming that’s waht the Koran says? [QUOTE=b\_wad] I have seen videos of mosques calling for suicide bombers and maryter’s. [/quote] And you think the ones you hear from that tell you the belief the Koran promotes killing is due to mistranslation deny that those videos or leaders exist? They don’t. [QUOTE=b\_wad] then I hear tpeople counter hat the christians killed in the inquisitons and promoted war.. but that does not fly because the New Testament, which overides the Old clearly states thou shall not kill, and love thy neighbor. [/quote] The NT overrides the OT? I don’t think so. **Matthew 5:18-19 (King James Version)** For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. **Luke 16:17 (King James Version)** And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. **Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)** Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. \*\*2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version) \*\* (bolding mine) \*\*All \*\*scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law: \*\*Mark 7:9-13 (King James Version) \*\* And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. The Pharisees criticize Jesus for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: **gMatthew 15:4-7 (King James Version)** For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, Peter mimicking the OT regarding slavery: **1 Peter 2:18 (King James Version)** Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. **John 7:19 (King James Version)** Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? **John 10:35 (King James Version)** If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/13 "2007-09-04T02:34:25Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] As to the actual basic question.. I have no idea, not knowing Arabic. But I would guess it probably does promote killing. It’s possible it may promote killing more than the Bible. To which I would say… well, so? [/QUOTE] You gotta be kidding. So?! Assuming that the text does call for killing in the name of and for the furtherance of Islam, “So”?!!! Even in light of the fact that not a small number of Muslims take these writings as instructions and HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THEM IN CURRENT TIMES, “So”? In light of the attacks here, England, Spain, Bali and other places around the world, “So”? In light of the thousands of innocent women and children that have been murdered in Iraq and elsewhere by suicide bombers, “SO”? In light of the Christians being murdered in the name of Islam in Africa and Asia, “So”. Are you fucking kidding me? Let me ask you, at what point might your care meter be nudged above “So”? Does the fact that these writings appear in a religious give it a free pass? Does it give you a free pass on critical thinking? Is there any point where religious text—which is acted upon by thousands of adherents (at least)—might get more than a shrug of your shoulders? **Rev** , I urge you to rethink what you wrote here. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/14 "2007-09-04T02:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=b\_wad] well.. the muslims I now do not deny the preaching of killing. however some of them like american life and lean towards keeping the society going. they do say thier mosques preach the killing !! [/QUOTE] Would it be unkind of me to suggest a spell-check & grammar-check? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/15 "2007-09-04T02:51:09Z")
**x-ray vision** makes a very good point. The New Testament says the Old Testament remains in effect; however, in Islam, there is the concept of _abrogation of verses_. Some verses remain in effect, others are null & void based on a verse considered to have been revealed later. Then, of course, one has the whole issue of schools of Hadith, not to mention some areas with barely literate mullahs and even jerks like Bin-Laden who isn’t even a Qur’anic scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/16 "2007-09-04T02:55:33Z")
In Luke 19"27, Jesus is quoted as saying this: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me. (KJV) Here’s a whole bunch of other different translations: (NKJV) ‘But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’" (NLT) And now about these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king-bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.’ " (NIV) But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ” (ESV ) “‘But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’” (NASB) “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.” (RSV) Luk 19:27 - But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’" (ASV) But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Young) but those my enemies, who did not wish me to reign over them, bring hither and slay before me.’ (Darby) Moreover those mine enemies, who would not [have] me to reign over them, bring them here and slay [them] before me. (Webster) But those my enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me. (HNV) But bring those enemies of mine who didn’t want me to reign over them here, and kill them before me.’" Just for laughs, here’s the Vulgate: _verumtamen inimicos meos illos qui noluerunt me regnare super se adducite huc et interficite ante me_ There’s more and every translation agrees that Jesus said to kill everybody would not accept him as king. Since I can also read the Greek, I can further vouch for the accuracy of those translations. That would look pretty damning to anyone who wanted to see Christianity in a bad light and was disinclined to investigate any deeper into the context and interpretation of that particular quotation. Quote mining religious literature for violent sounding passages is easy to do. It just isn’t going to be terribly informative about the practitioners of that religion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/17 "2007-09-04T03:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] You gotta be kidding. So?! Assuming that the text does call for killing in the name of and for the furtherance of Islam, “So”?!!! Even in light of the fact that not a small number of Muslims take these writings as instructions and HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THEM IN CURRENT TIMES, “So”? In light of the attacks here, England, Spain, Bali and other places around the world, “So”? In light of the thousands of innocent women and children that have been murdered in Iraq and elsewhere by suicide bombers, “SO”? In light of the Christians being murdered in the name of Islam in Africa and Asia, “So”. Are you fucking kidding me? Let me ask you, at what point might your care meter be nudged above “So”? Does the fact that these writings appear in a religious give it a free pass? Does it give you a free pass on critical thinking? Is there any point where religious text—which is acted upon by thousands of adherents (at least)—might get more than a shrug of your shoulders? **Rev** , I urge you to rethink what you wrote here. [/QUOTE] You misunderstand; I’m not saying “Eh, so what. You win some, you lose some”. I’m saying “So? What is to be done?”. My point (at least as I meant it) was that if it turns out it’s true, if the Koran contains many more encouragements to kill than the Bible does, where exactly does that leave us? Do we ban it? Do we treat Muslims more suspiciously? Do we do nothing? What does this mean, in context; do we judge all holy texts against the Bible in terms of unpleasant exhortations? Is there a level or strength of such things in particular at which we act, but not before then? In essence, if the OP’s premise is correct.. what do we do with this knowledge? A “so” of shrugged dismissal would, as you point out, be pretty ludicrous. I guessed I thought it too ludicrous for anyone to think I meant that. After all, I wouldn’t be posting in the thread if I didn’t think it mattered… although I suppose the boards do have their fair share of nutcases now and again 😉 . Just to be perfectly clear; whatever the answer is here, and whatever any response might be to that, this is a very important issue that can and does mean life or death many times over. I think the only difference between your feelings and mine on this is that I wouldn’t single out Christian deaths specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/18 "2007-09-04T03:25:09Z")
The Psalms (Old Testament) are the source of this little nugget of Christian Love: > [@King James Version](#): > > Psalm 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that > rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. > Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the > stones. And from a more modern translation: > [@New International Version](#): > > Psalm 137:8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us — > Psalm 137:9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. OK, maybe the OT isn’t to be judged as harshly as the NT. But that is not mere reportage of what the Jews went through, that is a cry of pure hatred and bloodlust against a people whose only crime was cheering when Jerusalem was torn down. What are we to think of Jews and Christians for keeping that little gem in their holy text? ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/19 "2007-09-04T03:27:34Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] In Luke 19:27, Jesus is quoted as saying this: … ‘But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ [/QUOTE] This had me curious, since it was a passage that I was not familiar with. This passage is from Jesus’ parable about the nobleman who goes away to be coronated, first giving each of several servants different responsibilities and expecting each to produce results accordingly. The verse immediately previous is the better-known one about 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away." That is, the first noted excerpt is not Jesus directly telling his disciples to kill enemies in front of Jesus, but Jesus saying that the nobleman wished to kill any disloyal subjects. The comment about quote mining is well taken. ---
**Author:** ![b\_wad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/439d5e/32.png) [@b\_wad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b_wad)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889/20 "2007-09-04T03:50:25Z")
ok… so lets all take it for granted that most religious writings have some refernce to violence… so now we need to look at what is taught in CURRENT temples,churches and moques. There is no question that in most mosqus martyrdom,suicide bombings and anti-relgious things are preached. In 40 years of attending church , studying religions I have not heard of any that promote negative actions against others in different religions. like religions that have seen that the violenve was wrong in the history of their religions…islam still teaches it to the letter… they do not tech it for history referneces, but for current practices. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/koran-translations/417889.md?page=2)