# Kosher and exotic meats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401 "2001-01-16T22:38:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/1 "2001-01-16T22:38:18Z")
I haven’t been able to find this one, and my Jewish friends are stumped, so here goes: My understanding of the laws of kosher is far from extensive, but I’d like to think I’m familiar with some of the basics. Now, I know that certain meats are avoided by default- some fish as well as pork. I know that preperation and what something is eaten with is also important, and that there are variations within traditions. But what about meats that are not commonly eaten or were not known of in biblical times? Squirrel, ostrich, alligator, whatever? Is there a critera for determining if they are kosher? My best friend thanks you in advance- she’s sick of me wondering if we could go out and eat a yak. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/2 "2001-01-16T22:43:40Z")
Try [www.kosher.org](http://www.kosher.org). I only glimpsed it, but it may help. FWIW, isn’t there something in the Kosher laws about eating animals with “cloven hooves”? Like, cows don’t have cloven hooves, so they taste good, but pigs do, so no-no? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/3 "2001-01-16T22:56:45Z")
general rules - someone will be along shortly with details and corrections, I’m sure. My background is a non-Jew who kept Kosher for three years while living with a Rabbincal student. 1. Seafood - Ya need fins and scales. Anything with legs, tentacles, etc., are right out. I think sea mammals are out, but because of the land critter rules, not the sea rules. 2. Birds - No general rules were set - the Torah lists particular forbidden birds, but the translations of some names are uncertain and/or some of the birds went extinct. I think the general rule accepted today is no carrion eaters. So no eating crow for you!! 3. Land critters - You can only eat critters with split hooves and who chew their cud. Horses are therefore out. Beef and sheep are cool, as are deer, buffalo, yak, etc. 'Course, once you get the right food, you’re not done yet. Meat and fowl must be butchered according to Kosher law. (I think you can do what you will with fish.) Finally, meat and dairy can’t be cooked together. This includes fowl - while not directly forbidden by the Torah, the Talmud forbids mixing birds and dairy - to “build a fence around the Torah.” This is probably not all perfect - generally, I looked for the kashrut (kosher symbol) and/or went food shopping with my roommate to make sure I didn’t treif (make unclean) the place. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/4 "2001-01-16T23:04:13Z")
Ok, I’m not the world’s expert, but there are 2 aspects to Kosher-tude. A)Is the animal kosher to eat? B)Was it slaughtered in a Kosher manner? Amongst other things kosher killings are supposed to be humane (pain-free) and the slaughter method is suposed to quickly drain the blood. Of course, it must be supervised by a rabbi. I’m pretty sure you could eat a yak as long as a Kosher killing took place (extrapolating from a conversation I once had about Kosher Deer meat). Same for the other animals you listed, like Ostrich (which is not substantially different from a large chicken in its eating habots). Bear in mind that animals that live by scavenging or eating carrion (or bottom feeders, I believe catfish are an unkosher fish) are never kosher, no matter how you kill them. Ok that’s what I can scape out of the depths of my brain. Hope I haven’t lead anyone too far astray. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/5 "2001-01-16T23:11:52Z")
SuaSponte has got it pretty much. A few minor nitpicks, like for birds, birds of prey are forbidden. But those are generally speaking the criteria that are used, so if you stumble across a new animal, you know how to treat it. Once you determine whether a species is kosher, there’s still the need for kosher slaughter. There’s lots of interesting cases, like the giraffe, which has cloven hoofs and chews its cud so would be kosher; however, it is impossible to do kosher slaughter (which needs to sever the jugular between certain vertebrae, which is not posssible to do on the giraffe without causing the animal pain.) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/6 "2001-01-16T23:20:12Z")
**Sua Sponte** pretty much hit it on the head. There are a couple of additions I’d like to make: > [@](#): > > \*\* > > 1. Seafood - Ya need fins and scales. Anything with legs, tentacles, etc., are right out. I think sea mammals are out, but because of the land critter rules, not the sea rules. \*\* I’m pretty sure that things like dolphins and whales would fall under sea creatures, whereas seals, sea lions, etc. would fall under land animals. It’s pretty moot anyway, since there are no sea animals with split hooves. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2. Birds - No general rules were set - the Torah lists particular forbidden birds, but the translations of some names are uncertain and/or some of the birds went extinct. I think the general rule accepted today is no carrion eaters. So no eating crow for you!! \*\* In general, we only eat birds that we know from tradition are kosher. Included in this listing are chicken, duck, turkey, pigeon, turtledove, goose. I’m sure there are others, but I can’t think of them off the top of my head. Ostrich is definitely out! > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3. Land critters - You can only eat critters with split hooves and who chew their cud. Horses are therefore out. Beef and sheep are cool, as are deer, buffalo, yak, etc. \*\* Even giraffe is kosher, but I have yet to see it served anywhere. I heard once (and I don’t know if this is a JUL or not) that the reason we don’t eat giraffe is because we don’t know precisely where on the neck to do the slaughter. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 'Course, once you get the right food, you’re not done yet. Meat and fowl must be butchered according to Kosher law. (I think you can do what you will with fish.) \*\* Fish don’t need to be slaughtered. They must be dead, however. So, no eating live goldfishes. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/7 "2001-01-16T23:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rmariamp \* > \*\* > I’m pretty sure you could eat a yak as long as a Kosher killing took place (extrapolating from a conversation I once had about Kosher Deer meat). Same for the other animals you listed, like Ostrich (which is not substantially different from a large chicken in its eating habots). \*\* Actually, ostrich is not kosher at all. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Bear in mind that animals that live by scavenging or eating carrion (or bottom feeders, I believe catfish are an unkosher fish) are never kosher, no matter how you kill them. \*\* Actually, that’s not quite true either. If it has fins and scales (and there was another thread on which scales are OK) then it is kosher, regardless of whether it is a scavenger/bottomfeeder or not. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Davidbw1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7993a0/32.png) [@Davidbw1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davidbw1)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/8 "2001-01-17T00:31:30Z")
Acording to the laws of Kashrut (the kosher laws) The animal must also have no “blemishes” or deformities or diseases. The animal must be killed by a Shochet (i’m sure that someone will correct my spelling), which is a specialy trained animal slaughter (If you think this sounds strange, don’t ask about a mohel). The Shochet will slit the animal’s throat with a razor sharp knife. Supposingly, this is the most humane and surefire way to kill the animals. If the Shochet screws up, the animal is no longer kosher. In order to be kosher, these animals have also to be cooked a certian way (to ensure that there is no blood in the animal) It either has to be bar-b-q’ed or salted. Either meathod will remove the blood from the animal. This whole procedure is aplicable to the acceptable “Birds and Land critters” specified by SuaSponte Additionally, depending on the degree of kosherness various amounts of rabbis must oversee this procedure (in some more liberal cases, rabinical supervision is not nessicary) For further explination as to when certian foods can be eaten in conjunction with each other (milk/meat) and the whole point behind this kosher thing, e-mail me ([Davidbw1@aol.com](mailto:Davidbw1@aol.com)) ---
**Author:** ![Davidbw1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7993a0/32.png) [@Davidbw1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davidbw1)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/9 "2001-01-17T00:34:19Z")
Even if all the steps discribed to you in my previous post are preformed on a non-kosher animal, the meat is still not kosher. A Rabbi once told me that there is no 99.9% kosher: only 100% and 0% ---
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/10 "2001-01-17T14:07:25Z")
OK, here’s some interesting stuff. The giraffe **is** kosher, although it’s not eaten. 🙂 This is a link to an article about how it can be shechted (ritually slaughtered): [http://www.kashrut.com/articles/giraffe/](http://www.kashrut.com/articles/giraffe/) > [@](#): > > **The animal must also have no “blemishes” or deformities or diseases.** This depends on how you define blemishes. Animals that were sacrificed in the Temple had to be perfect; I don’t think this applies today, as long as the animal is disease free. > [@](#): > > **It either has to be bar-b-q’ed or salted.** Liver must be broiled; this is the only way to get all the blood out. Other meat (and fowl) must be salted completely with coarse salt (hence, the term “kosher salt”), allowed to drain, and then rinsed. I believe this is done a few times, and this is how all the blood is removed. Rabbinical supervision is always necessary. If the slaughterhouse is not properly supervised, many (dare I say most??) people who observe the kosher laws will not buy its products. However, that’s a whole other discussion. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/11 "2001-01-17T14:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elshpen \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > **The animal must also have no “blemishes” or deformities or diseases.** > > This depends on how you define blemishes. Animals that were sacrificed in the Temple had to be perfect; I don’t think this applies today, as long as the animal is disease free. > > \*\* Animals sacrificed in the Temple had to free of blemishes. Animals slaughtered for eating have to be healthy. A _shochet_ inspects an animal after it is slaughtered for any number of defects, the most famous being lesions on the lungs. If any of these defects are found, the animals is ruled a _teraifah_ and is not kosher. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/12 "2001-01-17T16:04:20Z")
Zev, doesn’t the blemishes issue connect with whether something is Glatt kosher? As I recall, a friend of mine who was raised Orthodox (of a fairly modern variety, FWIW) explained that Glatt originally had something to do with the state of the carcass’s lungs. Now marketers seem to use it as a general term meaning “even more kosher than you ever thought possible,” which amuses my friend to no end. (Just try finding lungs on “glatt” fruit.) Was he right? ---
**Author:** ![Rebo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rebo/32/13005_2.png) [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/13 "2001-01-17T16:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elshpen \* > \*\*OK, here’s some interesting stuff. The giraffe **is** kosher, although it’s not eaten. 🙂 This is a link to an article about how it can be shechted (ritually slaughtered): > > [What�s The Truth About�Giraffe Meat!](http://www.kashrut.com/articles/giraffe/) > > > [@](#): > > > > **The animal must also have no “blemishes” or deformities or diseases.** > > This depends on how you define blemishes. Animals that were sacrificed in the Temple had to be perfect; I don’t think this applies today, as long as the animal is disease free. > > > [@](#): > > > > **It either has to be bar-b-q’ed or salted.** > > Liver must be broiled; this is the only way to get all the blood out. Other meat (and fowl) must be salted completely with coarse salt (hence, the term “kosher salt”), allowed to drain, and then rinsed. I believe this is done a few times, and this is how all the blood is removed. > > Rabbinical supervision is always necessary. If the slaughterhouse is not properly supervised, many (dare I say most??) people who observe the kosher laws will not buy its products. However, that’s a whole other discussion. \*\* So no rare steak? Only well-done? Blech! What about shellfish like oysters and clams? They don’t have legs or tentacles. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/14 "2001-01-17T16:48:09Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Dolores Claiborne \* \*\* > [@](#): > > What about shellfish like oysters and clams? They don’t have legs or tentacles. \*\* The only seafood that can be kosher has fins and scales, so oysters, clams, lobster, etc are out. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/15 "2001-01-17T17:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtnjohnson \* > \*\*Zev, doesn’t the blemishes issue connect with whether something is Glatt kosher? > > As I recall, a friend of mine who was raised Orthodox (of a fairly modern variety, FWIW) explained that Glatt originally had something to do with the state of the carcass’s lungs. Now marketers seem to use it as a general term meaning “even more kosher than you ever thought possible,” which amuses my friend to no end. (Just try finding lungs on “glatt” fruit.) > > Was he right? \*\* Yes and no. Glatt is a yiddish word meaning “smooth.” Some defects in an animal are acceptable and do not render it a _teraifah_, while others do. Lesions on the lungs may or may not, depending on the type. Many Orthodox Jews will not (as an added measure of strictness) eat meat with any lesions on the lungs. This is the origin of Glatt Kosher. Nowadays, most (but not all) kosher meat produced is Glatt kosher as well. Since many Orthodox Jews hold to the standard of Glatt kosher, it has become a word used in marketing as well. I have yet to see any non-meat product (such as fruit) advertised as “glatt.” If you do, someone’s pulling your leg. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/16 "2001-01-17T17:21:39Z")
[esoteric joke] Well, in terms of vegetables, there are some rabbinic authorities who proclaim that broccoli and cauliflower are not kosher because little teeny tiny insects could be hiding in the many little teeny tiny crevices on the head of the vegetable. Insects are not kosher, of course, so vegetables that cannot be cleaned of insects would not be kosher either. So, I suppose, zev, one could have “glatt kosher” veggies… [/esoteric joke] ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/17 "2001-01-17T17:37:44Z")
To add a bit of additional clarification to **Zev’s** post: The term “glatt” is not a halachic term, and is not (to my knowledge) found in Rabbinic literature. It is merely a descriptive, as Zev says. As such, it has no precise meaning. Much of what purports to be “glatt” is actually anything but that. C K Dexter Haven > [@](#): > > there are some rabbinic authorities who proclaim that broccoli and cauliflower are not kosher because little teeny tiny insects could be hiding in the many little teeny tiny crevices on the head of the vegetable What do you mean “some”? Who says otherwise? (This has become an increased issue in recent years due to the declining use of pesticides). But the broccoli itself is not unkosher - it must be washed off. Some are sold pre-washed. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/18 "2001-01-17T17:56:08Z")
Hi folks. May I ask four questions :rolleyes: about what is and isn’t Kosher? A couple of them I’ve had rolling about in my noggin for ages, a couple came to mind as I was reading this thread. I apologize in advance if any of my questions offend - it may be idle curiosity, but it is honest curiosity. [list] [li]First off, why isn’t an ostrich considered kosher? Does it break any particular rule, or is it non-kosher because of (sing with me now ) - tradition! Does that mean all birds not known to the ancient Israelites are non-kosher? If not, then what about penguins and puffins?[/li] [li]Along those lines, aren’t bats listed amongst the birds that are deemed unclean? Does that mean that ancient Israel did not agree with Linean cladistics?[/li] [li]How do you slaughter a bug? IIRC certain insects are listed as being kosher. Do they need to be killed in a certain way, or is that only reserved for land animals? Would they be subject to the same dietary restrictions as ‘regular’ meat?[/li] Lastly, and perhaps most gruesomely, what about genetically modified foods? Let’s pretend that two hundred years from now, genetic engineering has come to the point where it is possible to breed a pig that has cloven hooves and a propensity (with all the biologically necessary hoo-ha) to chew its cud. Can ya eat 'em? Or on a slightly less mad-scientist note, what about plants genetically engineered with animal genes? (That’ll give new meaning to ‘foxglove’). ---
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/19 "2001-01-17T17:58:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dolores Claiborne \* > **So no rare steak? Only well-done? Blech!** No, perhaps I wasn’t clear. **Meat** is made kosher by salting and rinsing, as the salt draws out the blood. **Liver** is made kosher by broiling. Once this process is finished, a person can cook the meat however he/she wants, rare, medium well-done, etc. BTW, true T-bone steaks are very rare, as certain parts of beef must be removed (there is a certain vein in the leg area, and I can’t think of the name right now). It’s called traiboring. The process is very labor intensive and expensive, so very few people do it. The father of a friend of mine is the chief Rabbi of Peru, and he knows how to do this process. Therefore, when she and her family go to visit, they are treated to real, kosher, T-bone steaks. Yum.😃 ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/20 "2001-01-17T18:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > I have yet to see any non-meat product (such as fruit) advertised as “glatt.” Then you haven’t been on Avenue J in Midwood, Brooklyn lately! 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401.md?page=2)