# Kosher and exotic meats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401 "2001-01-16T22:38:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/21 "2001-01-17T18:08:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > \*\*Linean cladistics? \*\* šŸ˜•šŸ˜•šŸ˜• Excuse my ignorance, but what does this mean? :o ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/22 "2001-01-17T18:12:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > \*\* > > [list] > [li]First off, why isnā€™t an ostrich considered kosher? Does it break any particular rule, or is it non-kosher because of (sing with me now ) - tradition! Does that mean all birds not known to the ancient Israelites are non-kosher? If not, then what about penguins and puffins?[/li] \*\* Ostrich is not kosher because it is one of the birds mentioned in Leviticus, where the Torah lists non-kosher birds. Strictly speaking, any bird not on that list is kosher. Thus, if a new bird is discovered tomorrow, in theory, it is a kosher bird. As a practical matter, the exact translation of some of the names of the birds mentioned are not 100% clear. As a result, we only eat birds today that are known from tradition to be kosher. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]Along those lines, arenā€™t bats listed amongst the birds that are deemed unclean? Does that mean that ancient Israel did not agree with Linean cladistics?[/li] \*\* The word _atalef_ is usually translated as bat, and hence, is not kosher. Yes, I know a bat is a mammal and not a bird. However, it is possible that the Hebrew word _of_ (meaning bird) does not necessarily equate to what is zoologically referred to as a bird today. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]How do you slaughter a bug? IIRC certain insects are listed as being kosher. Do they need to be killed in a certain way, or is that only reserved for land animals? Would they be subject to the same dietary restrictions as ā€˜regularā€™ meat?[/li] \*\* There are several species of grasshopper that are, techinically, kosher. Again, however, since the precise definitions of which ones they are are lost to us, as a practice, we donā€™t eat them. If you knew which one was kosher, it (like fish) would not need a ritual slaughter. One would simply have to make sure it was dead. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [li]Lastly, and perhaps most gruesomely, what about genetically modified foods? Letā€™s pretend that two hundred years from now, genetic engineering has come to the point where it is possible to breed a pig that has cloven hooves and a propensity (with all the biologically necessary hoo-ha) to chew its cud. Can ya eat 'em? Or on a slightly less mad-scientist note, what about plants genetically engineered with animal genes? (Thatā€™ll give new meaning to ā€˜foxgloveā€™).[/li] > \*\* Thatā€™s a very interesting question, which is only beginning to be dealt with. Come back and ask me again in twenty years. As an aside, Harry Turtledove wrote a short story about a scientist who engineered a pig (which already has split hooves) that chewed itā€™s cud. He had the main character try to figure out whether or not the ā€œpigā€ was kosher. In the end, the Rabbi ate from the pig, but I wouldnā€™t hold Harry Turtledove to be an authority on Jewish law. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/23 "2001-01-17T18:15:47Z")
It means I canā€™ t spell. Linneanā€¦ linneanā€¦Lineus? The whole Kingdom / Phylum / Class / Over / For / Great / Spaghetti thing. Cladistics (again, watch out for my spelling) is the art of putting divergent species together along ancestral (genetic) lines. If you ever get to NYC, hit the Natural History Museum. The redid the top floor a few years ago to make one giant evolutionary cladagram. Walking through it is an awe inspiring glimpse into evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/24 "2001-01-17T18:29:28Z")
A side note. There is one species of pig, the babirussa, that chews its cud. This wild pig lives in indonesia, has greyish skin, and huge bizarre tusks growing out of its head. This pig is kosher. However, just because an animal is kosher doesnā€™t mean Jews have to eat it. Bats are not kosher, even if they had not been listed with birds that arenā€™t kosher. After all, they donā€™t have cloven hooves, nor do they chew their cud. But it is not surprising that ancient hebrews had different ideas about animal classification than modern scientific phylogenists do. Even in english we have such ideas. ā€œBugā€, ā€œFishā€, ā€œInvertebrateā€, and ā€œZebraā€ lump together species without regard to cladistic branching. There is no such thing, scientifically, as a zebra! Yes, some horses have stripes, some donā€™t, if you want to call a horse with stripes a zebra fine, but it is only a descriptive term. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/25 "2001-01-17T18:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > One would simply have to make sure it was dead. Iā€™m under the impression that this is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/26 "2001-01-17T18:36:02Z")
Wowā€¦ fantastic. Thanks Zev, Lemur and the host of TM! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/27 "2001-01-17T19:05:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > One would simply have to make sure it was dead. > > Iā€™m under the impression that this is not true. \*\* Grasshoppers donā€™t fall under _aiver min hachai_?? (eating the flesh of a living animal). Thatā€™s news to me. I could be wrong. Have a source? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/28 "2001-01-17T19:28:18Z")
\<\< What do you mean ā€œsomeā€? Who says otherwise? \>\> There is no disagreement that insects are not kosher (excluding the even more esoteric locusts mentioned by zev). The question is whether broccoli, even if cleaned, can be kosher. My understanding is that some rabbis have declared that it can never be clean enough to be sure there were no insects hiding in the crevices, and therefore broccoli itself is not kosher. Other rabbis have said that if itā€™s cleaned, itā€™s cleaned, and that brocolli is not inherently non-kosher. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/29 "2001-01-17T19:28:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elshpen \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > **It either has to be bar-b-qā€™ed or salted.** > > Liver must be broiled; this is the only way to get all the blood out. Other meat (and fowl) must be salted completely with coarse salt (hence, the term ā€œkosher saltā€), allowed to drain, and then rinsed. I believe this is done a few times, and this is how all the blood is removed. > \*\* Iā€™m sure someone else will correct me, but I thought that the halachic requirement is simply that the blood be removed from the meat. If broiling works for liver, from which the blood is otherwise impossible to remove, then even more so (_chal vā€™chomer_?) it should work for the meats from which it is much easier to remove. I thought soaking and salting are only _required_ for meats that will be cooked by methods other than broiling. IIRC, traditional kosher butcher shops might sell meat that had not been soaked and salted (although the whole sides would have been washed regularly with cold water while stored). Since the meat would be eaten immediately, there was no worry that it would be stored for too long without cooking or continued regular rinsing. Then the buyer could choose to soak and salt at home for non-broiled dishes, or broil the unsalted meat directly. As a convenience, I think most kosher butchers now pre-soak and salt the meat, so the process wonā€™t have to be done at home. Packaged kosher meat is always pre-soaked and salted, possibly because it is likely to be stored for too long without rinsing. Orthodox posters feel free to trash this. Rick ---
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/30 "2001-01-17T20:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickG \* > **If broiling works for liver, from which the blood is otherwise impossible to remove, then even more so (_chal vā€™chomer_?) it should work for the meats from which it is much easier to remove.** This is true. > [@](#): > > **As a convenience, I think most kosher butchers now pre-soak and salt the meat, so the process wonā€™t have to be done at home. Packaged kosher meat is always pre-soaked and salted, possibly because it is likely to be stored for too long without rinsing.** I think itā€™s more for reasons of convenience. Who would want to take the time to have to broil meat to kasher it? Besides, you would have to use an awful lot of aluminum pans, since the drippings from the broiling meat would render the pans traif. Do any butcher shops sell unsalted meat any more? > [@](#): > > **Orthodox posters feel free to trash this.** I thought ā€œorthodoxā€ is out and ā€œobservantā€ is in. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/31 "2001-01-17T20:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtnjohnson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > > > I have yet to see any non-meat product (such as fruit) advertised as ā€œglatt.ā€ > > Then you havenā€™t been on Avenue J in Midwood, Brooklyn lately! šŸ˜ƒ \*\* Sure I have. I only live about two minutes away. What non-meat item have you seen advertised as ā€œglatt?ā€ Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/32 "2001-01-17T21:05:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > My understanding is that some rabbis have declared that it can never be clean enough to be sure there were no insects hiding in the crevices, and therefore broccoli itself is not kosher. News to me. **RickGā€™s** post is on the mark. In general, kosher foods are not immune from the larger trend of prepackaging etc. that has swept modern society. Who wants to be salting or broiling a bunch of meat, if the company will do it for you? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/33 "2001-01-17T21:16:22Z")
I think thereā€™s a tradition among some Yemeni Jews that talks about what kind of grasshoppers are kosher and which arenā€™t, so itā€™s ok for them to eat them. Itā€™s not ok for anybody who doesnā€™t have that tradition, though. Not that Iā€™ve really been tempted, butā€¦ Izzy, why would the prohibition against eating a living animal not apply to grasshoppers? ---
**Author:** ![andyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@andyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andyman)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/34 "2001-01-17T22:11:30Z")
OK, one clarification please. Catfish donā€™t have scales, so are they not kosher? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/35 "2001-01-17T22:22:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andyman \* > \*\*OK, one clarification please. Catfish donā€™t have scales, so are they not kosher? \*\* Fish: No scales = not kosher Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/36 "2001-01-17T22:26:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > Sure I have. I only live about two minutes away. What non-meat item have you seen advertised as ā€œglatt?ā€ > \*\* Dear Lord, give me strength to resist playing Jewish Geographyā€¦ So you probably know my friend (who went to YOF, and I can never remember which Young Israel shul his family goes to), but Iā€™m not going to mention names \ā€¦ Where was I? Oh, yeah, what Iā€™m thinking about is this fruit store, rather expensive, on Avenue J right near the D train. There was some sort of sign assuring that everything was glatt, and my friend rolled his eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/37 "2001-01-17T22:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Grasshoppers donā€™t fall under aiver min hachai?? (eating the flesh of a living animal). Just as vegetarianism blends into veganism as one gets more and more strict, are there sects of Judaism that would prohibit eating yogurt or other foods with ā€˜active live culturesā€™? ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/38 "2001-01-17T22:58:03Z")
I wish I had something more constructive to add to this, but I just wanted to send out a thank you for all who have answered this. Most informative. Now, however, my best friend wonā€™t go out for a nice yakburger. Some peopleā€¦ šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/39 "2001-01-17T23:05:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Grasshoppers donā€™t fall under aiver min hachai?? (eating the flesh of a living animal). > > Just as vegetarianism blends into veganism as one gets more and more strict, are there sects of Judaism that would prohibit eating yogurt or other foods with ā€˜active live culturesā€™? > \*\* To my knowledge, there is no group in Orthodox Judaism that prohibits eating yogurt (or other foods) with live cultures. The Torah doesnā€™t list any prohibitions for animals smaller than an insect. One does not have to worry, therefore, about bacteria and other microscopic creatures that may or may not be on oneā€™s food. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2001, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401/40 "2001-01-17T23:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtnjohnson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > > > Sure I have. I only live about two minutes away. What non-meat item have you seen advertised as ā€œglatt?ā€ > > \*\* > > Dear Lord, give me strength to resist playing Jewish Geographyā€¦ > > So you probably know my friend (who went to YOF, and I can never remember which Young Israel shul his family goes to), but Iā€™m not going to mention names \ā€¦ > > Where was I? Oh, yeah, what Iā€™m thinking about is this fruit store, rather expensive, on Avenue J right near the D train. There was some sort of sign assuring that everything was glatt, and my friend rolled his eyes. \*\* I havenā€™t seen it. But if I had, I would have rolled my eyes tooā€¦ Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-and-exotic-meats/50401.md?page=3)