# Kosher Eating: Eggs and Chickens **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936 "2018-02-16T17:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/21 "2018-02-17T15:11:37Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Cue joke about Rabbi and Priest… > > > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > > A Rabbi, a Priest and a Methodist Minister walk into a bar. > > The bartender asks, “What is this, a joke?” I’m betting he’s thinking of the one where the rabbi and the priest are old friends, and as they are getting old, they ask each other if they ever transgressed the stereotypical rules of their respective religions. i.e., Has the Priest ever had sex? Has the Rabbi ever eaten ham? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/22 "2018-02-17T15:32:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’m betting he’s thinking of the one where the rabbi and the priest are old friends, and as they are getting old, they ask each other if they ever transgressed the stereotypical rules of their respective religions. i.e., Has the Priest ever had sex? Has the Rabbi ever eaten ham? …and the Basque shepherd says, “I wish it were dark.” No, that ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/23 "2018-02-17T15:40:33Z")
Essentially the same as printed in [_The Official Jewish Joke Book_](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NrbYlb5lL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg): The Priest says to the Rabbi, “Rabbi, you keep Kosher, correct?” To which the Rabbi replies, “Of course, father.” The Priest then asks, “But have you ever broken kosher?” The Rabbi then says, “I admit that I have. When I was a young man I once indulged myself in ham, and in doing so broke Kosher.” “That’s very interesting,” remarks the priest, “for I am free to eat as much ham as I please.” “What about you, father,” begins the Rabbi, “you keep celibate, do you not?” The preist replies, “Of course, Rabbi.” “But,” continues the Rabbi, “have you always kept so?” The Preist then says, “I admit, I have not. When I was a young man I once made love with a woman.” The Rabbi then leans in and asks, “It’s better than ham, isn’t it?” ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/24 "2018-02-23T05:13:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > …There’s a guy in New York that sells beef hamburgers with soy cheese, and he has been praised and condemned for it. … Well, he’s actually violating the rules, because virtually all soy “cheese” has casein (a milk derivative) in it. That’s something that has always baffled me: you’re avoiding cheese either for religious reasons, or because you don’t want any animal product - and that violates both of them. Supposedly it’s there to make the stuff melt more like real cheese. Someone who did keep a kosher kitchen once told me that you can’t even cook _chicken_ with dairy - where “in its mother’s milk” is clearly not possible. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/25 "2018-02-23T07:26:45Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > … because virtually all soy “cheese” has casein (a milk derivative) in it … Does it? The only soy cheese substitutes I have ever seen were typically targeted at vegans, and definitely don’t contain any animal products. Here’s one : [http://followyourheart.com/products/cheddar-3/](http://followyourheart.com/products/cheddar-3/) Here’s another: [https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Violife-NonDairy-Cheese-Alternative-For-Pizza-Mozzarella-Flavour/362616011](https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Violife-NonDairy-Cheese-Alternative-For-Pizza-Mozzarella-Flavour/362616011) Here’s another: [https://vegusto.co.uk/collections/vegan-cheese/products/vegan-cheese-alternative-cheddar-no-moo-mild-aromatic?variant=38312210898](https://vegusto.co.uk/collections/vegan-cheese/products/vegan-cheese-alternative-cheddar-no-moo-mild-aromatic?variant=38312210898) Another: [http://www.buteisland.com/index.php/products/blocks/mature-cheddar-style](http://www.buteisland.com/index.php/products/blocks/mature-cheddar-style) Another: [https://shop.thevegankind.com/products/tofutti-dairy-free-alternative-to-mozzarella-block-200g?utm\_medium=cpc&utm\_source=googlepla&variant=34889100750&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk-uy4sC72QIV4jLTCh0XSwuaEAkYCSABEgKQ6vD\_BwE](https://shop.thevegankind.com/products/tofutti-dairy-free-alternative-to-mozzarella-block-200g?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&variant=34889100750&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk-uy4sC72QIV4jLTCh0XSwuaEAkYCSABEgKQ6vD_BwE) I can’t find a single ‘not-actually-cheese’ product (in markets available to me) that contains casein. I know there are lactose-free dairy cheeses (but those are just real cheese with the lactose predigested). What products are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/26 "2018-02-23T12:34:57Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Someone who did keep a kosher kitchen once told me that you can’t even cook _chicken_ with dairy - where “in its mother’s milk” is clearly not possible. The way this rule gets stretched is odd. I’ve known people who kept separate refrigerators for meat and dairy. Ditto separate plates/dishes/etc. OTOH the rules on [Eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv)\* (wire “enclosure” thing) are stretched in the opposite direction. For an outsider, it’s really not possible to guess which direction such stretching is going to go. - Right now, the first paragraph of the article is mostly backwards. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/27 "2018-02-23T13:01:22Z")
Cheese is frequently problematic anyway because it’s made with rennet which is usually an animal (meat) product. But this is not a universal view. Usually you ask 2 Jews you get 3 answers. With Kashrut you get 5. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/28 "2018-02-23T14:57:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Does it? The only soy cheese substitutes I have ever seen were typically targeted at vegans, and definitely don’t contain any animal products. > Here’s one : [http://followyourheart.com/products/cheddar-3/](http://followyourheart.com/products/cheddar-3/) > Here’s another: [https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Violife-NonDairy-Cheese-Alternative-For-Pizza-Mozzarella-Flavour/362616011](https://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Violife-NonDairy-Cheese-Alternative-For-Pizza-Mozzarella-Flavour/362616011) > Here’s another: [https://vegusto.co.uk/collections/vegan-cheese/products/vegan-cheese-alternative-cheddar-no-moo-mild-aromatic?variant=38312210898](https://vegusto.co.uk/collections/vegan-cheese/products/vegan-cheese-alternative-cheddar-no-moo-mild-aromatic?variant=38312210898) > Another: [http://www.buteisland.com/index.php/products/blocks/mature-cheddar-style](http://www.buteisland.com/index.php/products/blocks/mature-cheddar-style) > Another: [https://shop.thevegankind.com/products/tofutti-dairy-free-alternative-to-mozzarella-block-200g?utm\_medium=cpc&utm\_source=googlepla&variant=34889100750&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk-uy4sC72QIV4jLTCh0XSwuaEAkYCSABEgKQ6vD\_BwE](https://shop.thevegankind.com/products/tofutti-dairy-free-alternative-to-mozzarella-block-200g?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&variant=34889100750&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk-uy4sC72QIV4jLTCh0XSwuaEAkYCSABEgKQ6vD_BwE) > > I can’t find a single ‘not-actually-cheese’ product (in markets available to me) that contains casein. I know there are lactose-free dairy cheeses (but those are just real cheese with the lactose predigested). What products are you talking about? It’s been a while since I shopped for such products, but I definitely recall seeing them; even asked a vegan friend about it (she’s the one who told me about the melting thing). My husband used to get soy “cream cheese” and one common brand was casein free, another one was not. Doing some googling, it sounds like it’s less common than it used to be. > **[Do You Know These Sneaky Non-Vegan Ingredients?](https://www.thespruceeats.com/sneaky-non-vegan-ingredients-3371739)** > > When following a vegan diet, it’s good to be aware of a few sneaky ingredients that may be lurking in foods, made or obtained from animal sources. [Soy cheese products deceive consumers, violate vegans](https://www.naturalnews.com/003217_soy_cheese_food_marketing.html) (from 2005) [https://www.quora.com/Why-is-soy-cheese-eaten-when-it-contains-casein](https://www.quora.com/Why-is-soy-cheese-eaten-when-it-contains-casein) [Are there Cheese Alternative that are truly Dairy-Free and Casein-Free? - Go Dairy Free](https://www.godairyfree.org/ask-alisa/ask-alisa-how-can-i-find-a-cheese-alternative-that-is-really-dairy-free-and-casein-free) [Is Casein Vegan? Milk Proteins and Vegan Cheese - Vegan.com](https://www.vegan.com/casein/) (“Back in the bad old days, many soy cheese companies put casein in their products without disclosing it as a milk ingredient, and few vegans of the time recognized that it wasn’t vegan. As food technology has advanced, vegan cheese companies have discovered plant-based ingredients that replicate casein’s meltability. There are now several great vegan cheeses on the market that have the same stretchiness as dairy-based cheese.”) So, depending on what fake cheese that fellow was using, his burgers may or may not have been kosher(ish). I say “kosher(ish)” because as others have noted, something that _appears_ to violate the rules is nearly as bad as something which actually does do so (though I admit, we once fed a friend a dish made with turkey ham, with his full knowledge and permission). ---
**Author:** ![nonacetone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonacetone/32/2819_2.png) [@nonacetone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonacetone)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/29 "2018-02-23T15:06:28Z")
Mother hens do NOT regurgitate food for the chicks. Look at the commercial hatchery businesses. They keep the chicks away from any adults, as soon as the eggs are laid, then, after the beak trimming, and sorting, they’re shipped off. No mother hens to be found. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/30 "2018-02-23T16:02:37Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Cheese is frequently problematic anyway because it’s made with rennet which is usually an animal (meat) product. But this is not a universal view. Usually you ask 2 Jews you get 3 answers. With Kashrut you get 5. I make two kinds of cheese and neither is made with real rennet. The first is ricotta which uses a souring agent like buttermilk, vinegar, or lemon juice. The second is mozzarella and what I use is called vegetable rennet. The explanation that came with the cheesemaking kit was that real rennet is simply too strong and would have to be heavily diluted in the quantities I make (4 liters of milk, making about a pound of cheese), plus some sour salt (sodium citrate). Of course, commercial cheese, unless made to be kosher and pareve (neither dairy nor meat). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/31 "2018-02-23T16:10:21Z")
> [@nonacetone](#): > > Mother hens do NOT regurgitate food for the chicks. Look at the commercial hatchery businesses. They keep the chicks away from any adults, as soon as the eggs are laid, then, after the beak trimming, and sorting, they’re shipped off. No mother hens to be found. Chickens are precocial, while sparrows, for instance, are altricial. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/32 "2018-02-23T16:29:51Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Chickens are precocial, while sparrows, for instance, are altricial. That’s a line from the deleted verse of _Mairzy Doats_, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/33 "2018-02-23T17:38:56Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Someone who did keep a kosher kitchen once told me that you can’t even cook _chicken_ with dairy - where “in its mother’s milk” is clearly not possible. There is a lot of discussion in the Jewish world about how to keep the 635 rules they’re all supposed to live under - including whether they still have to obey all 635 any more. > [@ftg](#): > > The way this rule gets stretched is odd. I’ve known people who kept separate refrigerators for meat and dairy. Ditto separate plates/dishes/etc. The separate plates and dishes thing is actually pretty common. The separate stoves/refrigerators/etc. are a bit more extreme. I’ve been eating lunch a couple times a month at the local Jewish Federation, which maintains a kosher kitchen for the purpose. Two completely separate sets of dishes, cutlery, and serving equipment for meat and dairy. This keeps most of the Jews in the area quite happy, but there’s one group that doesn’t find it kosher enough and never shows up to the social lunches. All of this because… > [@NAF1138](#): > > Usually you ask 2 Jews you get 3 answers. With Kashrut you get 5. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/34 "2018-02-23T22:30:14Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So is it OK to have a cheeseburger if you think about it, and acknowledge that you are not eating the calf and the mother’s milk at the same time? > > I understand it’s a continuum. I read once that some rabbis say eating a gardenburger with cheese on it is not kosher, because it has the _appearance_ of not being kosher. Yet many Jewish people eat turkey bacon. And most of all, kosher sausages. If the rule is to avoid eating food which could be mistaken as treif by someone who saw you eat it, kosher sausages have to top the extended prohibition list. The root cause of these exercises in tying knots while bending over backwards likely stems from the fact that the Talmud was written far before Maimonides got access to Aristotle’s logic through Averroes. Without that influence, there’s any number of logical mistakes made which are now difficult to back away from; The more authority you give to a source, the more embarrassing/difficult it is to change what you make it say. For example, in the eruv business, there is a conflation between a necessary condition of what makes a private space (delineation) with whatever the sufficient condition might be. There was a desire to increase convenience so hanging a wire around an entire city can now make that city a private space. You would think it would be yet more efficient to make a small circle and say that it wraps around the earth with its apparent center the outside of the circle. > [@NAF1138](#): > > He pointed me to deuteronomy and some Talmud and said essentially that, the point of keeping kosher is to have a set of rituals that separate Jews from non Jews. That they are complicated enough to require thought if you eat meat so that you do not simply mindlessly consume animal flesh, but simple enough that they are follow able. In his opinion kosher operates on a continuum and that the act of attempting to keep kosher is more important than any of the reasons listed in Leviticus. Kinda like hipsters going gluten-free vegan as a form of group signaling? Is he Reform? What kind of social enforcement is there of the kashrut? If someone from an Orthodox community feels like having a bacon cheeseburger, then what? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/35 "2018-02-23T23:03:55Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Kinda like hipsters going gluten-free vegan as a form of group signaling? > Is he Reform? Conservative actually, though my synagogue is Reconstructionist. He was trained at a conservative seminary though and leans heavily in that direction. > [@](#): > > What kind of social enforcement is there of the kashrut? If someone from an Orthodox community feels like having a bacon cheeseburger, then what? For Orthodox? It depends too. There is Orthodox and there is ORTHODOX. In some communities you can be shunned or expelled. Most won’t though. Really excellent book on non conformity in ultra orthodox communities [https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00LRWK334/ref=mp\_s\_a\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519427212&sr=8-1&pi=AC\_SX236\_SY340\_FMwebp\_QL65&keywords=all+who+go+do+not+return](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00LRWK334/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519427212&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=all+who+go+do+not+return) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/36 "2018-02-24T02:28:19Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What kind of social enforcement is there of the kashrut? If someone from an Orthodox community feels like having a bacon cheeseburger, then what? My Rabbi in New Hampshire said his mother began keeping Kosher when he became a Rabbi. She said, “They would look at me not keeping Kosher and say, “And her son’s a Rabbi!”” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936/37 "2018-02-24T03:05:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > By that reasoning, shouldn’t it be non-kosher to serve a dish combing eggs and chicken? What, are you accusing Paul Simon of not keeping kosher? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-eating-eggs-and-chickens/808936.md?page=1)