# Kosher/Halal/Other religions dietary question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598 "2008-09-08T13:23:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/1 "2008-09-08T13:23:52Z")
In those religions that prescribe restrictions on diet are there waivers available in times of crisis? I.e. if you have nothing else to eat and you’re starving, can you eat non-Kosher, non-Halal etc. food? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/2 "2008-09-08T13:29:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > In those religions that prescribe restrictions on diet are there waivers available in times of crisis? I.e. if you have nothing else to eat and you’re starving, can you eat non-Kosher, non-Halal etc. food? Yes, for both kosher and halal, if the choice is death or eating non-kosher/non-halal then breaking the dietary laws is permitted (some might even say required if it is necessary to preserve life) ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/3 "2008-09-08T13:53:27Z")
What **Broomstick** said. Similarly - topical since we’re in Ramadan - a Muslim may break his or her fast if ill, and a Muslim woman not only _may_ eat but _must_ do so if she is menstruating, pregnant, or breast-feeding. Since the Kosher rules are actually _stricter_ than the Halal ones, a Muslim may eat Kosher food if no Halal food is available - but not the other way around (at least, this is what a Muslim friend told me). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/4 "2008-09-08T14:20:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, for both kosher and halal, if the choice is death or eating non-kosher/non-halal then breaking the dietary laws is permitted (some might even say required if it is necessary to preserve life) There’s no question; you are required to preserve your own life. Life overrides all dietary laws in Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/5 "2008-09-08T14:51:12Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > In those religions that prescribe restrictions on diet are there waivers available in times of crisis? I.e. if you have nothing else to eat and you’re starving, can you eat non-Kosher, non-Halal etc. food? It’s certainly the case re. Lent and other fast times in Catholicism. This extends also to people who have other dietary restrictions: for example, a diabetic will be asked to give up something else, as his dietary habits are actually a form of medication. Those guys who resorted to canibalism after their plane crashed in the Andes are the most extreme current-ish case, human flesh being about if not the only “edible” thing that’s specifically forbidden at all times (I don’t have the Catechism here, ok) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/6 "2008-09-08T15:51:20Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There’s no question; you are required to preserve your own life. Life overrides all dietary laws in Judaism. What about those passages in Maccabees? > [@](#): > > And many of the people of Israel determined with themselves, that they would not eat unclean things: and they chose rather to die, than to be defiled with unclean meats: And they would not break the holy law of God and they were put to death: And there was very great wrath upon the people. [Cite](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ma001.htm), if that is necessary. Is that different from starvation? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/7 "2008-09-08T16:06:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is that different from starvation? Yes, it is. Preservation of life overrides all laws except the prohibition on murder, adultery, and idolatry in all but one case: when someone is trying to stamp out Judaism by forcing Jews to break the Jewish laws. You’re allowed to become a martyr by practicing those laws in that case. Note: the passage says they were _put to death_, not that they _starved_. That looks to me like someone trying to wipe out Judaism, in which case it’s permissible to keep the laws even though doing so will result in your death. It’s even clearer in the context of the passage that they are talking about being put to death by a ruler who wanted to wipe out Judaism, not starving to death. Incidentally, even though you’re not allowed to commit murder if doing so would save your life, Judaism doesn’t count killing in self-defense as murder. You’re allowed to kill someone who is threatening to kill you. We also don’t read the commandment in the Ten Commandments as “you shall not kill”, unlike a lot of Christians, in Hebrew it’s “you shall not _murder_”. But if Person A says to you “I will kill you unless you kill Person B” (where B is an innocent third party), then you’re not allowed to kill B. You are allowed to kill A, if you can. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/8 "2008-09-08T16:28:21Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Incidentally, even though you’re not allowed to commit murder if doing so would save your life, Judaism doesn’t count killing in self-defense as murder. You’re allowed to kill someone who is threatening to kill you. We also don’t read the commandment in the Ten Commandments as “you shall not kill”, unlike a lot of Christians, in Hebrew it’s “you shall not _murder_”. But if Person A says to you “I will kill you unless you kill Person B” (where B is an innocent third party), then you’re not allowed to kill B. You are allowed to kill A, if you can. Indeed, the commandment to preserve your own life is in place here, too: ‘If he rise up to kill _you_, kill him first’ is the paraphrase I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/9 "2008-09-08T16:31:03Z")
It’s also true that the sick or infirm are not supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, for similar reasons. The purpose of these rules is honor, not fanaticism. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/10 "2008-09-08T16:49:15Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s also true that the sick or infirm are not supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, for similar reasons. And you’re not supposed to keep fasting to the point that you faint, either- if you really think you’re going to faint, you should break your fast. Some people do push themselves too hard (a lot of synagogues have ambulances waiting outside during Yom Kippur, just in case, though I’ve never actually seen someone faint during services), but that’s not really what you’re supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/11 "2008-09-08T17:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > though I’ve never actually seen someone faint during services I’ve seen it happen a few times if it’s been unseasonably hot, and the synagogue’s air conditioning system was not up to handling that degree (heh) of heat. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/12 "2008-09-08T18:57:37Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Yes, it is. Preservation of life overrides all laws except the prohibition on murder, adultery, and idolatry in all but one case: when someone is trying to stamp out Judaism by forcing Jews to break the Jewish laws. You’re allowed to become a martyr by practicing those laws in that case. > > Note: the passage says they were _put to death_, not that they _starved_. That looks to me like someone trying to wipe out Judaism, in which case it’s permissible to keep the laws even though doing so will result in your death. It’s even clearer in the context of the passage that they are talking about being put to death by a ruler who wanted to wipe out Judaism, not starving to death. Thanks for your response. You are correct that it was an attack on Judaism. See also [2 Maccabees](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ma007.htm) with a description of the hideous tortures used to try to get the Jews in question to eat pork. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/13 "2008-09-08T20:33:49Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Those guys who resorted to canibalism after their plane crashed in the Andes are the most extreme current-ish case, human flesh being about if not the only “edible” thing that’s specifically forbidden at all times (I don’t have the Catechism here, ok) If I recall, at the time the Pope specifically stated that the boys were right to eat their fellow passengers as some people were terribly squicked out by the whole thing. The Pope also specified that while it was OK to eat human flesh to preserve your life it was most emphatically NOT OK to kill someone to get it - the young men in question were eating folks who had die of injury or exposure, they weren’t, um, _hastening_ death in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/14 "2008-09-08T20:38:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What about those passages in Maccabees? [Cite](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ma001.htm), if that is necessary. > > Is that different from starvation? > > Regards, > Shodan Bear in mind that the Book of Maccabees is not exactly canonical. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/15 "2008-09-08T20:46:10Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Since the Kosher rules are actually _stricter_ than the Halal ones, a Muslim may eat Kosher food if no Halal food is available - but not the other way around (at least, this is what a Muslim friend told me). Indeed. Kosher food is Halal, but Halal food need not be Kosher (eg a beefburger made with Kosher meat but topped off with a slice of cheese is Halal, but not Kosher). And as in Judaism and Catholicism, those who are ill (and travellers too IIRC), should not keep the fast. You are required to keep the _spirit_ of the fast though, just not the physical denial of food. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/16 "2008-09-08T21:32:07Z")
Any Jewish law must be broken in a life-and-death situation; i.e. if someone has a heart attack on the Sabbath, it’s okay to use a phone and an ambulance to get them to the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/17 "2008-09-08T21:38:21Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Indeed, the commandment to preserve your own life is in place here, too: ‘If he rise up to kill _you_, kill him first’ is the paraphrase I’ve heard. Also, if A is pursuing B with clearly murderous intent, you’re allowed to kill A to preserve B’s life. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If I recall, at the time the Pope specifically stated that the boys were right to eat their fellow passengers as some people were terribly squicked out by the whole thing. The Pope also specified that while it was OK to eat human flesh to preserve your life it was most emphatically NOT OK to kill someone to get it - the young men in question were eating folks who had die of injury or exposure, they weren’t, um, hastening death in any way. Judaism has pretty much the same rule. Cannibalism isn’t one of the things that is prohibited if you will die if you don’t do it. The only things in that category are murder of an innocent person, adultery, and idolatry. But if you killed someone so you could eat them, that would be murder, and therefore forbidden even if you would die if you didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/18 "2008-09-08T22:23:14Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Indeed. Kosher food is Halal, but Halal food need not be Kosher (eg a beefburger made with Kosher meat but topped off with a slice of cheese is Halal, but not Kosher). And as in Judaism and Catholicism, those who are ill (and travellers too IIRC), should not keep the fast. You are required to keep the _spirit_ of the fast though, just not the physical denial of food. That’s what I thought, as well, but I know a lot of Muslims locally who don’t think kosher commerical yogurt (yes, yogurt!) is halal - something about the gelatin. Googling didn’t help in the slightest. Have any light to shed? ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/19 "2008-09-08T22:43:05Z")
> [@chique](#): > > That’s what I thought, as well, but I know a lot of Muslims locally who don’t think kosher commerical yogurt (yes, yogurt!) is halal - something about the gelatin. Googling didn’t help in the slightest. Have any light to shed? [This page](http://www.soundvision.com/info/halalhealthy/halal.kosher.asp) describes the differences between kosher and halal from a Muslim perspective, and it mentions gelatin: > [@](#): > > Gelatin is considered Kosher by many Jews regardless of its source of origin. If the gelatin is prepared from non-zabiha, Muslims consider it haram (prohibited). Hence foods items such as marshmallows, yogurt, etc., showing kosher symbols are not always halal. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598/20 "2008-09-09T01:17:20Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Similarly - topical since we’re in Ramadan - a Muslim may break his or her fast if ill, and a Muslim woman not only _may_ eat but _must_ do so if she is menstruating, pregnant, or breast-feeding. Note that people breaking the fast for any reason (and plenty break it just because they are hungry) will be expected to make up for it at some point later in the year. This is kind of a bummer (especially for women, who usually can’t get around it) because then they end up fasting alone without the community support and special rhythm of life that keeps people going during Ramadan. The good part is you can break up your make-up days, and just fast a day now and then until you are good. Or at least, that’s how they do it in Northern Cameroon. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-halal-other-religions-dietary-question/462598.md?page=2)