Kosher is basically stuff you couldn’t eat back then without taking risks with your life, that you didn’t understand how to avoid + some other stuff.
Shayna:
While bda might not have expressed himself well, he does have a valid point. Assuming god isn’t a jerk, the rules which are essentially his irect word, via divinely inspired prophets, are for our own good. When we fully understand a rule, and are no longer in the situation it applied to, it makes sense to ask why the rule is still applied.
Pork and shellfish are no longer a risk if you understand how to select them properly, and prepare them properly. Thus, kosher laws are somewhat obsolete, or should be modified to say “don’t eat pig, without proper cooking.”
And yes, as someone said, it is off topic, because the thread is ‘what’, not ‘why’. But that doesn’t mean the question itself is rude.
The question could also be taken to mean, how much of Kosher is based on reasonable health guidelines, and how much is based on ‘mere religion’. For instance, not eating pork (at least until you know how to cook it) is a good idea, but why is burying a pot with rocks for a month a better idea something else? It’s just that one method of purification (making safe) was mentioned and another wasn’t, over time it changed from a making-safe to a ritual.
If kosher was said to be just a religious rule, like no work on Sunday, or prayer, etc, something based on pleasing a god, then it would be understood as such. If kosher is presented as just dietary rules, then it IS reasonable to question if they have any validity anymore. Nobody questions Easter, it’s a religious thing, perhaps irrational, but accepted as such. But the date, if you claim it to be the literal date of resurection, then you’ll get people questioning the calendar, the dating methods, the similarity to pagan festivals, etc.
So bda, be more polite. Everyone else, decide if it’s a religious rule (do it, just because) or a guideline for your own good, what you decide it as changes things.
For instance, if less than 1/60th of something lands in something kosher, it might remain religiously kosher, but if that contamination was raw pig’s blood on salad (uncooked) then you may want to reconsider the whole thing, even though technically proper.
And hey, don’t sweat the typing. It’s been proven (I’m sure Cecil would agree) that spelling nazis who pick on typos are even worse than the regular spelling nazis, and deserve all sorts of bad things like locusts, scurvy, an BSsOD.
I beg your pardon, WhiteNight, but you are assuming a fact not in evidence.
You draw a line between a religious observance such as Easter and the observance of the dietary laws; as to the former, you speculate it is strictly religious, while as to the latter you assert that it’s dietary and therefore subject to continued questioning.
All the Kosher laws are held to come from the same source: the Lord God, Master of the Universe. They are obeyed not because of a concern for health, but because they are mitzvoth, commandments, from God.
Under your analysis, where would the din of shatnes fit in? It’s a prohibition against, among other things, mixing linen and wool in the same garment. Is it for some comprehensible reason, and can now be questioned, or is it to be accepted because we don’t know the reason?
The entire body of kasruth law derives from a religious source, and may not be cavaliarly dismissed with, “Oh, that was for health reasons and we can safely disregard it now; the other was for religious reasons and we are still bound.”
WhiteKnight, you may have some misconceptions about kashrut. Kashrut is often interpreted to be a set of primitive hygiene laws. However, this focuses only on those details of kashrut can be fitted into that interpretation, whilst ignoring the rest. Thus, pork is said to be tref because of the possibility of trichinosis…but that does not explain why hare and camel are also tref. Likewise, shellfish are claimed to be tref because of the ease of spoilage…but this does not explain why sturgeon should be tref.
We actually do not “fully understand” the laws of kashrut. They are generally considered chukim, “statutes”, those mitzvot for which clear and obvious reasons are not known, but are nonetheless required. Rabbi Samson Hirsch writes:
and
And Parshat Kedoshim states
Now, there are humanly conprehensible reasons that can be given for the laws of kashrut: self-control and discipline, kindness towards animals, justice towards men, the symbolism of the animals permitted, religious cohesiveness, and esthetic values towards foodstuffs. As Hirsch, following Rambam (Maimonides) and Ramban (Mahmanides), and Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel indicate, however, these humanly comprehesible reasons do not validate or invalidate the laws of kashrut.
“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”
Those are great questions Krispy, and I’ll be happy to answer what I can.
The simple answer is that Jewish dietary laws are what they are because G-d has spelled out what can and cannot be eaten in the Torah. There are some instances where there are health benefits, but in most of the customs, health is not the reason; it is done “because it is written.”
For instance, there is no reason why rabbit meat is any less healthy than cow meat, but rabbit is not kosher and cow is. There is some evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion, therefore eating them separately does provide a health benefit, however that is not the reason it’s done (which is explained below).
The Torah doesn’t give any reason for most of these laws. The one exception is in Lev. 7:26-27 and Lev. 17:10-14 where it prohibits the consumption of blood, and states that this is because the life of the animal is contained in the blood.
Other rules that are spelled out, but no specific reason is given are:
[ul][li]You may eat any animal that has cloven hooves and chews its cud. (Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6). The Torah specifies that the camel, the hare and the pig are not kosher because each lacks one of these two. Cattle, goats and deer are kosher.[/li][li]You may eat anything that has fins and scales (Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9). Therefore, all shellfish is forbidden, as is shark, but fish like tuna and salmon are allowed.[/li][li]The Torah forbids consumption of certain birds (Lev. 11:13-19; Deut. 14:11-18). All of the birds on the list are birds of prey or scavengers, therefore it is inferred that this was the basis for the distinction. Other birds are allowed, such as chicken, ducks and turkeys.[/li][li]Rodents, reptiles, amphibians, and insects are all forbidden (Lev. 11:29-30, 42-43).[/ul][/li]
Aside from listing specific animals, or criteria for distinguishing animals that can or cannot be eaten, there are also rules about how food must be slaughtered (Deut. 12:21). We may not eat animals that died of natural causes (Deut. 14:21) or that were killed by other animals. Animals must also be free of disease at the time of slaughter.
And animal lovers may be pleased to note that the method of slaughter (a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade) is supposed to be painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.
The most common question about keeping kosher concerns the separation of meat and dairy. The Torah tells us that we are not to “boil a kid in its mother’s milk” (Ex. 23:19; Ex. 34:26; Deut. 14:21), and the practice was extended to include not eating the meat of the animal along with the milk (or milk products).
While these are not the only rules in kosher dietary law, I hope that it helped give you a better understanding. Perhaps someone who keeps kosher (I do not) can expand upon this.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
That’ll teach me to take so long in composing my reply . I see that there are already several responses that precede mine. Hopefully between all of us, what I missed was covered in one of the other replies.
Yowza! WhiteNight, you make some interesting (and in some cases valid) points, but may I please correct some of your statements?
[quote]
Kosher is basically stuff you couldn’t eat back then without taking risks with your life, that you didn’t understand how to avoid + some other stuff.[/qutoe]
See my reply below. That’s simply not true. While some of the dietary laws do provide health benefits, or it was inferred that the reasons were for health benefits, health was never actually stated by G-d to be the reason for His laws.
bda isn’t guilty of simply not expressing himself well, he was downright rude. However, that doesn’t excuse my rudeness in response. Since it’s not likely I’ll be in communication with bda during the High Holy Days, let me take this opportunity to ask forgiveness for my sharp tongue, and forgive bda for his. My sincerest apologies.
While that would seem to make sense, and in many aspects of kosher law it does, it is not the rule across the board (again, see my respones below). What is “for our own good” about not eating rabbits, for instance?
And that is the generally accepted reason why most Reform Jews don’t keep kosher. However, it doesn’t answer the fact that any “understanding” of kosher laws is open entirely to interpretation, as no reasons were ever given (with the exception of the consumption of blood). We only assume that shellfish were prohibited because they live in their own excrement, thereby making them dirty and unhealthy. Not that that’s a bad assumption, but again, that was never specifically spelled out, it’s simply inferred.
You are correct; pork and shellfish are no longer a risk healthwise, as we assume them to have been in the past. But Jews who keep kosher do so for reasons well outside of the health ramifications of consuming certain foods. In the celebration of most all the Jewish holidays, the most important thing is remembering and honoring our ancestors, their traditions, and their suffering so that we might be free to live our lives as Jews. Maintaining kosher dietary laws in spite of the fact that certain foods may no longer be unhealthy, reminds those who do so to remember and honor the ways of our ancestors. In essence, it elevates the simple act of eating into a religious ritual. And sometimes, tradition is the only reason anyone needs to maintain a certain rite.
But it is understood as such. It’s just that Reform Judaism has chosen over the years to reinterpret those laws as they (we) saw fit. And therein lies the difference between Reform Jews and other sects who do follow kosher dietary laws. Reform Jews do feel that the list of forbidden foods in the Torah are simply dietary rules set forth at a time when methods of sterilization and refrigeration were such that consumption of those foods was unhealthy. It’s a matter of interpretation to us, whereas to most Conservative, and all Orthox and Hassidic Jews, the Torah’s laws are not subject to interpretation, but should be followed to the letter out of respect and reverence to G-d.
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
PREVIEW. Administrators; I want PREVIEW. LOL Please forgive the use of emphasis throughout my above reply. I really did try to proof it before posting. sigh
Not bad at all, Bricker. In fact, you had me fooled for quite a while (although not intentionally). I thought you were Jewish until I read a response from you somewhere (I can’t remember which topic now), where you mentioned being Catholic.
Off topic, but FYI, in case you don’t read the MPSIMS board, you made my list in the topic about posters we’d date if they weren’t married or otherwise spoken for Of course being Catholic automatically eliminates you from that ever becoming a reality as well, but I thought you might like to know that I find you to be an interesting and enjoyable person to post with, and therefore someone I wouldn’t mind knowing IRL.
I’ll now return you to your regularly scheduled thread…
“How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.” - Anne Frank
Thanks for the plug in MPSIMS; I think I have posted twice in that forum… somehow, it just doesn’t grab me. But I was pleased and honored to be on your list!
In any event:
Actually, I’m not sure I agree with that. Even the most devoted of Orthodox Jews recognize the need to interpret the Torah, for from the Torah they derive the Oral Law. The basic premise is that the Torah contains both plain meaning and concealed things (devarim stumim). An execellent example of devarim stumim is the mitzvah of tefillin, for which there is no clear Torah instruction. How then must a Jew observe this mitzvah?
(Just imagine that last line read with the classic sing-song candence of talmudic reasoning: “Ho-ow, then must a Jew o-observe this mitzvah?” But I digress.)
It is proper to resort to the commentaries to discern God’s intent, if the intent is unclear from the Torah. Many dinim (rules) reference multiple shitot (systems) from the different commentaries, and each issue is dissected in minute detail, so you have to wade through acres of “because this is the pshat of the Gemora according to Rabbi Yahuda and Rav against Reish Lokish and Shmuel.” Or something.
In any event, it’s beyond cavil that the Orthodox brook much less in the way of interpretation of Torah if Torah is unambiguous on a point, while the Reform tend to put the whole thing up for grabs of one sort or another.
Bricker, I stated in that MPSIMS topic that my reason for your inclusion on my list is that you always keep me on my toes. You have done so again
You are correct when you say, “Even the most devoted of Orthodox Jews recognize the need to interpret the Torah, for from the Torah they derive the Oral Law.”
When I wrote, “…the Torah’s laws are not subject to interpretation…,” in my haste I omitted the word “dietary.” Given that that’s the context of the discussion, I took for granted that it would be known that I was only referring to the laws of the Torah as they pertained to keeping kosher. If my statement is taken out of that context, it is, of course incorrect.
What I should have said, in order to be more clear, was, the Torah’s dietary laws are not subject to interpretation to those that follow them. That is one of the things that is done for no other reason than, “because it is written.” To Orthodox and Hassidic Jews, the laws of kashrut fall into the category of “chukkim;” laws for which there is no reason.
In the case of kashrut, the Oral Torah does offer clarifications for the specific exclusions, however it still doesn’t attempt to determine why certain foods aren’t allowed. And those who follow those rules don’t seek any further reason other than that it is the word of G-d. It is only those who seek a reason not to follow kosher laws, who attempt to interpret meaning in them beyond just that they are written.
All of the above is as I understand it. If any of it is still incorrect, I welcome any corrections.
Insects fall into the category of “creeping things” or “flying creeping things” which are generally forbidden, but some are specifically singled out and exempted from that prohibition in Lev. 11:22:
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
Oh, just in case anyone might think otherwise: I am not Jewish, and I don’t know how that particular passage is interpreted in re kashrut. I’m just pointing out that the scripture itself seems to explicitly permit eating four kinds of insects while forbidding all others.
This is sort of a tangent, but I’m really curious…
I’m not all that knowledgeable about how foods are certified as kosher or non-kosher - I believe it has something to do with the plant producing/slaughtering the food being inspected by a rabbi and certified kosher.
However, it seems to me that a lot of companies whose foods are designated as “kosher” aren’t companies that cater specifically to Jews, but rather to the public generally. My question is, are there any safeguards in place to ensure that, once a production method is deemed “kosher”, the company doesn’t revert back to using ingredients or methods which render the food non-kosher again (due to convenience or expense). Also, does Jewish scripture provide a dispensation (for lack of a better word) for Jews who unknowingly eat non-kosher food believing it to be kosher?
The processing of kosher foods (exactly what processing is dependent on exactly what foodstuff) is under the supervision of mashgiochim, laymen knowledgable in the laws of kashrut. After initial certification by a rabbi, supervision will effectively be periodic surprise inspections by the <mashgiochim*, to check the various ingredients, their sources, use of machinery, etc.
Could separate stocks of ingredients, different machinery, etc., be used to fool the mashgioch? Sure; he’s only human, and recent (lack of) enforcement of secular regulations shows that no earthly system can be considered perfectly. However,
[list=1][li]Depending on the frequency and thoroughness of inspections, it might actually be more expensive to switch everything around to fool a mashgioch, and then back for normal production.[/li][li]A firm caught at evading kashrut would certainly have to be re-certified. I don’t know what (say) OU’s policy on this would be, but it would certainly be something between tiresome and ruinous for the company involved (the latter if most or all of their business is kosher).[/li][/list=1]
As for unwitting transgression of a mitzvah, the Torah provides animal sacrifice as a means of atonement. As the Temple is not standing at the moment, however, sacrifice cannot be performed, and prayer is substituted (reading tractate Kodashimis not a bad idea, either, although by no means mandatory).
“Kings die, and leave their crowns to their sons. Shmuel HaKatan took all the treasures in the world, and went away.”
About 5-6 years ago a restaurant in NYC ( a converted Boat?) was threatened with losing it’s kosher certificate because it allowed couples dancing. My town has a kosher hot dog stand. Is it wrong to want saurkraut on my knish? Best sandwiches in the world-kosher deli.
I’m not the one asserting, many times I’ve seen it said, or heard one of my jewish friends say that kosher is a dietary law, and was written with the people’s safety in mind, much like telling people not to keep pet grizzly bears.
If kosher is merely a set of dietary rules, as many believe, then they should treat it as such. This is why I said “everyone else, decide if…” If you believe it’s a religious rule, not required to make sense to us, then follow it to the letter. If it’s just a suggestion, then treat it as such.
You can’t have both, it can’t be a suggestion that made sense, and thus not an arbitrary rule, and at the same time be part of the ‘truths’ handed down. If you claim that it’s a suggestion, to make it seem more logical, then when it outlives that logic, you have to get rid of it. If you don’t make those claims, then you’re free to follow all the specific rules.
Note that ‘you’ here means each practicioner individually. Friends of mine have stopped following kosher at all, reasoning that it’s a suggestion, like never starting a sentence with ‘because’, but once we understand the situation in depth, we can decide better for ourselves. Other friends are more orthodox, and they follow kosher, along with all the other laws, reasoning as you do, that it is not for us to reason why. Either makes sense, but a combination doesn’t.
Perhaps not, but if you apply these strict ideals to kosher, then you’d be hypocrit if you didn’t follow all the other rules to the best of your knowledge an ability.
I don’t think so. I understand you can’t be orthodox without following every rule, but I know very few orthodox people, of any religion. Almost everyone decides to cut out some annoying (to them) rituals and to practice what they feel is the most important part of their god’s message.
Akatsukami:
I readily acknowledge holes in my unerstanding of jewish religion, but I don’t think any of them are relevant to this discussion.
That’s why I said “Kosher is … + some other stuff.” The kosher dietary rules are what were being discussed, and I felt that this is what the question was about, not the related topic of all restrictions and duties involved in being jewish.
Shayna:
Agreed, he asked things in a ‘tone’ I’d have found offensive, were I in a position to get offended by someone insulting my religion.
I was simply pointing out that if you explained what kosher was, and why it is/was, as best ‘we’(not including me) understand it, that he’d probably be less insulting in the future, having seen that your religion isn’t just a bunch of incomprehensible rules, but does have good ideas to guide your everyday life.
Perhaps that you can (I read somewhere…) grow malnourished on a mainly-rabbit diet because they don’t contain vitamins we need. Perhaps it was all too easy to eat mainly rabbit.
But, point taken, kosher rules, as a whole, do include more than just pigs and shellfish.
These rules can either be 1) followed religiously, 2) ignored because they seem to be unimportant or 3) follow them until further notice, based on the evidence that the advice on pigs and shellfish were both right.
Agreed. Even me, athiest boy, can see the value of traditions. If kosher is what makes you feel good, and bind your community, along with the other traditions, then follow it, by all means. But in this case you’re more looking for the circle’d K (any connection with the convenience store?) and the assurance behind that than any specific health benefit, like unleavened bread, minoras, etc.
My mistake, I didn’t indicate when I was speaking to a more general audience and I attributed to you the confusion between rule and advice, as well as seemingly directing to you my advice to differentiate between the two. That was to the people in the thread in general.
Administration stuff:
Oh yes, that would be wonderful. That, and a wider/taller text window. It’s hard to write a cohesive message when a whole paragraph won’t fit in the window.
Perhaps settings for users at > 640x480 could be available, and selectable at post, or via a stored setting, with a cookie.
Speaking of which, anyone notice that their name/password isn’t being saved properly anymore? Happened just in the last week, but it works properly on other similar boards, like Slashdot.
I was coming at the discussion from the standpoint of “What are the kosher rules?” Implicit in my approach was the acceptance of the idea (at least for the purposes of the discussion) that these were laws based on God’s commandments. But you correctly point out that many people view them as something less, to be followed as pleases them, or not at all. I have a friend, in fact, who keeps a quasi-Kosher home, in that he buys his food at the regular supermarket, but treats everything from the moment he gets it in a Kosher fashion. So he’s not worried about how or if a shochet killed the cow, but he won’t top his hamburger with cheese.
. I see that there are already several responses that precede mine. Hopefully between all of us, what I missed was covered in one of the other replies.