# Kosher Milk? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584 "2011-08-30T03:16:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/1 "2011-08-30T03:16:43Z")
I was reviewing the daily news from New York’s Jewish community this morning. It mentioned that deliveries of [“Golden Flow”](http://www.vosizneias.com/90352/2011/08/29/new-york-irene-causes-temporary-disruption-in-cholov-yisroel-milk-supply) milk were disrupted by the hurricane. Can one type of milk be preferable to Jews than another type? I thought milk was milk. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/2 "2011-08-30T03:29:15Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I was reviewing the daily news from New York’s Jewish community this morning. It mentioned that deliveries of [“Golden Flow”](http://www.vosizneias.com/90352/2011/08/29/new-york-irene-causes-temporary-disruption-in-cholov-yisroel-milk-supply) milk were disrupted by the hurricane. > > Can one type of milk be preferable to Jews than another type? I thought milk was milk. It’s complicated. Milk is only kosher if it comes from a kosher animal. Some Orthodox Jews believe that in the modern Western world government regulations and supervision are enough to ensure that this requirement is met, but others believe that all milk requires Rabbinical supervision to ensure that it is kosher. Here is a rather poorly written [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholov_Yisroel) on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/3 "2011-08-30T03:32:15Z")
Surely religious dietary laws are the last place to go looking for logical explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/4 "2011-08-30T03:36:14Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Surely religious dietary laws are the last place to go looking for logical explanations. :rolleyes: Not at all. Religious dietary laws may be very logical in the sense of being internally self-consistent, even if they seem illogical from an outside perspective. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/5 "2011-08-30T03:42:23Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Not at all. Religious dietary laws may be very logical in the sense of being internally self-consistent, even if they seem illogical from an outside perspective. Perhaps “rational” would have been a better word choice on my part than “logical”…but in any case, “internally self-consistent” nonsense is still nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/6 "2011-08-30T03:46:14Z")
Thank you for the two on-topic replies. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/7 "2011-08-30T03:46:22Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Perhaps “rational” would have been a better word choice on my part than “logical”…but in any case, “internally self-consistent” nonsense is still nonsense. Not sure how that addresses the OP’s point in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/8 "2011-08-30T05:08:05Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Surely religious dietary laws are the last place to go looking for logical explanations. > [@zombywoof](#): > > Perhaps “rational” would have been a better word choice on my part than “logical”…but in any case, “internally self-consistent” nonsense is still nonsense. These comments are inappropriate for a GQ thread. If you want to debate religion, please do so in the Great Debates forum. If you just want to grouse about it, the Pit is a good place for that. But don’t do it here. ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/9 "2011-08-30T05:18:07Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I was reviewing the daily news from New York’s Jewish community this morning. It mentioned that deliveries of [“Golden Flow”](http://www.vosizneias.com/90352/2011/08/29/new-york-irene-causes-temporary-disruption-in-cholov-yisroel-milk-supply) milk were disrupted by the hurricane. > > Can one type of milk be preferable to Jews than another type? I thought milk was milk. Rav Moshe Feinstein (possibly the greatest American Orthodox rabbi of modern times) ruled that in the US, USDA supervision of milk is adequate to ensure that it hasn’t been adulterated by milk from unkosher sources, because the labeling requirements are so strict that if it contained something other than cow’s milk, it would have to be noted as such or the company would face penalties. Therefore, the milk doesn’t need a hechsher. This is known as _cholov stam_. However, not all Orthodox Jews hold by this leniency (and it’s only applicable to the US as far as I know), and insist that milk has to be constantly supervised by a Jew to ensure that it is not adulterated. This milk is known as _cholov yisroel_, the supply of which is what was disrupted by the storm. My local grocery store carries _cholov yisroel_ string cheese. It’s about twice as expensive as the regular stuff. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/10 "2011-08-30T05:42:03Z")
No doubt it costs a lot to pay someone suitably qualified ‘constantly supervising’ the cheese while it matures (several weeks to a few months). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/11 "2011-08-30T06:30:07Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Perhaps “rational” would have been a better word choice on my part than “logical”…but in any case, “internally self-consistent” nonsense is still nonsense. Actually, even discxounting any religious reasons for kosher law, the longstanding food-preparation customs of _any_ ethnic group are very often a good guide to food safety for the items of their diet. Taking this point away from what Jews beiieve haShem told them about what foods are acceptable and to be prepared in what ways, “Do not eat the goomba berry, or an evil spirit will kill you,” is not nonsense but a good way for a preliterate culture to hand on the folk wisdom that it is toxic as cream of arsenic soup. If you think about it, evil spirits kill thousands of Americans a year, largely from DUI accidents, cirrhosis of the liver, etc. – and the wordplay is very much intentional; you don’t know precisely what they mean by “an evil spirit”, and it could very well be the local jargon for “poisonous organic fluid.” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/12 "2011-08-30T13:32:54Z")
Re cheese: Most cheese is made using rennet, extracted from cow’s stomach and is, ipso facto, not kosher. So there is an explanation for kosher cheese. There are vegetable sources for enzymes that curdle milk and that is what they use. Two weeks ago, I went to an ultra-orthodox wedding. The tables had a card that explained exactly where the chicken and the veggies came from and they were guaranteed kosher. The chicken I understood, but vegetables? Upon inquiry, I found that every lettuce leaf had to be individually inspected to guarantee that it contained no insects (which are non-kosher, save for grasshoppers and locusts). ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/13 "2011-08-30T16:10:47Z")
Also with cheese, the rabbi has to make certain the other ingredients are also kosher: any non-fat dry milk, any calcium solutions, the packaging materials, and even the lubricants on the machinery. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/14 "2011-08-30T17:00:43Z")
Statement on the subject from [Dave Rietz](http://www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm) and his anti-milk site > [@](#): > > KOSHER > > Is cow’s milk and dairy “Kosher”? Consider this: > > “D-3 always is derived from an animal. The sunlight reaction that converts 7-dehydrocholesterol to vitamin D-3 is a ‘pure’ chemical reaction that occurs in your skin in certain cells.” > > “The provitamin known as 7-dehydrocholesterol is extracted and isolated from the skins of mammals and purified.” (Marian Herbert of the Vitamin D Workshop U of C) > > Vitamin D-3 can come from four different sources: > > Pig skin, sheep skin, raw fish liver, and pig brains. Most of the time, Vitamin D-3 is extracted from pig skin and sold to dairy processors. > > Short answer to “is milk kosher” - probably not. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/15 "2011-08-30T17:10:14Z")
Given that even most milk that is not “Cholov Yisroel” is still certified by a Kosher agency such as the O-U, I’d doubt that those non-kosher ingredients are not present in any significant amounts. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/16 "2011-08-30T17:11:15Z")
> [@chizzuk](#): > > Rav Moshe Feinstein (possibly the greatest American Orthodox rabbi of modern times) ruled that in the US, USDA supervision of milk is adequate to ensure that it hasn’t been adulterated by milk from unkosher sources, because the labeling requirements are so strict that if it contained something other than cow’s milk, it would have to be noted as such or the company would face penalties. Therefore, the milk doesn’t need a hechsher. This is known as _cholov stam_. > > However, not all Orthodox Jews hold by this leniency (and it’s only applicable to the US as far as I know), and insist that milk has to be constantly supervised by a Jew to ensure that it is not adulterated. This milk is known as _cholov yisroel_, the supply of which is what was disrupted by the storm. > > My local grocery store carries _cholov yisroel_ string cheese. It’s about twice as expensive as the regular stuff. Orthodox Jews in Canada must hold to a similar system. I know plenty in Montreal and Toronto and they all drink regular supermarket milk with no problem. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/17 "2011-08-30T23:59:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Statement on the subject from [Dave Rietz](http://www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm) and his anti-milk site WTF is that guy’s issue with milk!? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/18 "2011-08-31T00:06:38Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > WTF is that guy’s issue with milk!? :dubious: Formula baby. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/19 "2011-08-31T00:07:05Z")
Now that the question’s been answered, can I hijack and say that I’ve always thought “Golden Flow” was a terrible product name? I mean, when I think about golden liquid that comes from a cow… milk ain’t the first flow that comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584/20 "2011-08-31T03:05:16Z")
“Operation Golden Flow” was the name used by GIs for the Army’s urine analysis program. So I had the the same thought. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-milk/594584.md?page=2)