# Kosher Restaurant Certification Authority Wants Surveillance Video of Dining Area **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503 "2010-10-08T15:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/1 "2010-10-08T15:57:24Z")
[Long story](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/magazine/10Kosher-t.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me) here, but the gist is that there’s a restaurant in Brooklyn that has a kosher certification suitable for the ultra-Orthodox Chassids. But it’s on the outskirts of the Jewish neighborhood and by location and decor also seeks gentile business. > [@](#): > > Then, shortly after 8, a young man walked in with a young woman wearing a summery, skimpy dress — sleeveless and backless, so that you could detect some sort of elaborate tattoo between her shoulder blades — and they took two of the empty stools at the bar, leaning in close to each other to talk. About five minutes later, another young couple took two more stools; the woman, in a black tank top and gray denim miniskirt, was angled so that her knees almost touched the man’s. And there the four new arrivals sat, emblems of the way the neighborhood was changing, on prominent display. They drew several stares, though they didn’t seem conscious of that. > > They were gone by 9, shortly after which the man in black appeared. Perez instantly recognized him as Rabbi Don Yoel Levy, a Hasid who heads OK Kosher Certification, which monitors and validates Basil’s advertised adherence to kosher dietary rules. He and his deputies are supposed to make unannounced kitchen inspections. But when Perez filled me in on the exchanges that she and other staff members at Basil had with him — I was in the restaurant then, as I had been all night long — she said that he expressed concern not about the food but about inappropriate attire and immoral behavior at the bar. Someone had apparently called to complain. Perez said that the rabbi was also requesting access, from this point forward, to Basil’s internal surveillance cameras. On the last page, the author reveals that the rabbi doesn’t quite agree with the account above; according to him, he was there to see the kitchen and didn’t express any concern about the customers’ dress. But he did confirm that his contract required him to ensure that the dining room met standards too: no female singers, for example, and socializing between unmarried men and women is for matrimonial purposes only. He also said that “similar requests have been readily met by other kosher restaurants” he certifies. The tone of the article is not blatantly disapproving, but it does convey, at least to my eye, a certain understated incredulousness. _How_, the article seems to ask, _in this day and age is something like this even possible?_ 1. Am I reading that tone into the article unjustifiably? 2. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the rabbi’s request? My answers are no, and no. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/2 "2010-10-08T16:01:06Z")
1. Probably not. 2. Definitely not. If the restaurant doesn’t want to comply, it doesn’t have to, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/3 "2010-10-08T18:38:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 1. Probably not. > 2. Definitely not. If the restaurant doesn’t want to comply, it doesn’t have to, of course. Hmm. I wonder about the no-female-singers rule - could that run afoul of NYC’s anti-discrimination laws? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/4 "2010-10-08T18:44:01Z")
Sounds much like the people who run around Iran looking for people disobeying conservative Islam tenets. Just need to give them some sticks to beat those with short skirts and tatoos. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/5 "2010-10-08T18:47:13Z")
What would Jesus do? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/6 "2010-10-08T18:51:03Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > 1. Probably not. > > 2. Definitely not. If the restaurant doesn’t want to comply, it doesn’t have to, of course. > > Hmm. I wonder about the no-female-singers rule - could that run afoul of NYC’s anti-discrimination laws? Presumably the restaurant doesn’t have any female singers at all. Note that I’m not addressing whether the restaurant would be doing something illegal by complying with all kosher requirements - just that it wouldn’t be doing anything wrong if it complied with this particular demand. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/7 "2010-10-08T19:00:43Z")
I think this is interesting in view of the recent rants by people like Sharon Angle about Muslim law becoming some sort of threat in the United States. While it’s true that the restaurant is under no obligation to comply, this sort of thing galls me. I think any religious group trying to lay down their own “laws” to others takes a lot of balls, be it Muslim, Jewish, Christian or whatever else. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/8 "2010-10-08T19:32:27Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I think this is interesting in view of the recent rants by people like Sharon Angle about Muslim law becoming some sort of threat in the United States. > > While it’s true that the restaurant is under no obligation to comply, this sort of thing galls me. I think any religious group trying to lay down their own “laws” to others takes a lot of balls, be it Muslim, Jewish, Christian or whatever else. Well, what they’re saying is simply, “If you want us to certify that you follow our laws, you have to follow our laws.” I don’t see why that would gall you. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/9 "2010-10-08T19:57:53Z")
I’d be interested in hearing from some of our resident experts in Jewish law. Isn’t kosher purely dietary? I mean, I know there are commandments against Jews having tattoos, and probably against certain sorts of premarital socializing, but is there any rule against eating in the general vicinity of other folks with tattoos? For that matter, I’m also unsure how the rabbi could tell that the affectionate couple weren’t married. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/10 "2010-10-08T20:13:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For that matter, I’m also unsure how the rabbi could tell that the affectionate couple weren’t married. His rabbi-sense was tingling! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/11 "2010-10-08T20:30:00Z")
I agree the certification authority can require whatever it wants. The restaurant can ignore them and forgo the certification if they want. It is not required by state law. I guess the question is can a public restaurant deny service to the public that does not meet its more stringent standards? I suppose a restaurant can insist on a certain dress codes (jacket & tie being common, no jeans, no sneakers and the ubiquitous no shoes-no shirt-no service stuff). The restaurant needs to decide for themselves whose business they want more. If the restaurant is really good gentiles will have to make a point to dress appropriately. I see no problem with the rabbi insisting on the surveillance video. He can ask. The owner can agree or not as he likes. Again depends on how badly he wants that certification. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/12 "2010-10-08T20:34:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Am I reading that tone into the article unjustifiably? I think so. > [@](#): > > 1. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the rabbi’s request? That depends on what _fundamentally_ means. If they’re going to make up standards for certifying a restaurant and the restaurant wants the certification, the authorities can enforce it. But I do think it’s intrusive and repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/13 "2010-10-08T20:38:54Z")
Do we have any Jews handy who can comment on whether the nonsense about female singers and unmarried canoodling is actually relevant to kosher law? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/14 "2010-10-08T21:02:14Z")
I stopped paying attention at "They were gone by 9, shortly after which the man in black appeared. … "… The man in black. Johnny Cash. Either him, or the Dread Pirate Roberts. I lost all concentration, right there 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/15 "2010-10-08T21:17:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do we have any Jews handy who can comment on whether the nonsense about female singers and unmarried canoodling is actually relevant to kosher law? I don’t see anything about it on the OK Kosher website. My guess is that it has more to do with the standards of that Hasidic community than with kosher rules. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/16 "2010-10-08T22:05:18Z")
Aaand we’re hitting once again on that grand old Doper tradition of asking a question about Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox practice on or almost on Shabbas. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/17 "2010-10-08T22:06:37Z")
You know what they say - a man without tradition is like a fiddler on the roof. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/18 "2010-10-08T22:08:56Z")
Thing is, there are many different koser certification agencies - but local businesses tend to go for local ones, as local customers insist on their local rabbi’s approval. [http://www.kashrut.com/trade/trade\_links/hechsher/](http://www.kashrut.com/trade/trade_links/hechsher/) Remember, there is no central authority ‘laying down the law’ for all of them, so they can - and, according to the article, do - vary. Sounds to me like the local rabbi is off on a power trip of his own. If the restaurant _can_, it ought to simply change agencies, and get a rabbi who only enforces the food aspect of kosher, and doesn’t try to force the restaurant to make its customers act like Hassids. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/19 "2010-10-08T22:16:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’d be interested in hearing from some of our resident experts in Jewish law. Isn’t kosher purely dietary? I mean, I know there are commandments against Jews having tattoos, and probably against certain sorts of premarital socializing, but is there any rule against eating in the general vicinity of other folks with tattoos? There are plenty of rules that reach farther than you might think. Wine, for example, is made from grapes, which are kosher, so you’d think wine would present no problems kosher-wise. But if the wine is poured by a gentile, it may be _stam yainom_ --touched by someone who believes in idolatry – and thus not kosher. (Wine that has been boiled is safe from this concern). In this case, I think the rabbi’s objection was not to the tattoos, but to the general immodesty. And while this is not, itself, a matter of kashrut, you can see how a general atmosphere that included gentiles who were not aware of the requirements of kashrut might lead to something treif, like a gentile pouring a glass of wine. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/20 "2010-10-08T22:19:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, there are many different koser certification agencies - but local businesses tend to go for local ones, as local customers insist on their local rabbi’s approval. > > [How to choose Kosher certification](http://www.kashrut.com/trade/trade_links/hechsher/) > > Remember, there is no central authority ‘laying down the law’ for all of them, so they can - and, according to the article, do - vary. > > Sounds to me like the local rabbi is off on a power trip of his own. If the restaurant _can_, it ought to simply change agencies, and get a rabbi who only enforces the food aspect of kosher, and doesn’t try to force the restaurant to make its customers act like Hassids. Well, the way I’m reading this situation, the restaurant didn’t HAVE to make its customers act Hasidic, because until recently, their customers WERE Hasidic. The neighborhood is changing demographics and the restaurant may not be ABLE to survive with only Hasidic customers soon. Now, I agree that perhaps they should switch to a less ultra-Orthodox rating agency, but I don’t necessarily know that it would be because their current rating is on a power trip. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503.md?page=2)