# Kosher Restaurant Certification Authority Wants Surveillance Video of Dining Area **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503 "2010-10-08T15:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/61 "2010-10-12T03:19:32Z")
Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > It’s not, or it shouldn’t be, the concern of a Kashrut certification organization as to whether an establishment is suitable for “observant Jews” to eat in. It should be the concern of a Kashrut certification organization as to whether the food in an establishment is Kashrut. I agree, to an extent. It’s true that it is both possible and legitimate for a Rabbi or Kashrut organization to focus purely on the Kashrut of the food and ignore any other religious element of the establishment. But on the other hand, a Rabbi or Rabbinic organization has every right to not wish to be seen as approving of any establishment that he/it does not approve of for whatever religious aspect. They do not want a Jew to walk in to, say, a place that features female singers in violation of Jewish law for him to listen to, and that Jew will be able to point to that Rabbi’s name on the certificate on the door giving him a sense of permission…even if the certificate clearly says it refers only to the food. > [@](#): > > Also, there are plenty of “observant Jews” who aren’t Haredi. But there aren’t plenty of Kashrut organizations composed of non-Haredi Rabbis. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/62 "2010-10-12T05:52:43Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I agree, to an extent. It’s true that it is both possible and legitimate for a Rabbi or Kashrut organization to focus purely on the Kashrut of the food and ignore any other religious element of the establishment. But on the other hand, a Rabbi or Rabbinic organization has every right to not wish to be seen as approving of any establishment that he/it does not approve of for whatever religious aspect. They do not want a Jew to walk in to, say, a place that features female singers in violation of Jewish law for him to listen to, and that Jew will be able to point to that Rabbi’s name on the certificate on the door giving him a sense of permission…even if the certificate clearly says it refers only to the food. Absolutely agreed. Clergymen are 24/7 respondents to their constituency, whoever that may be. (obviously to G\_d first, I get it). If the local constituency will get bunched up over dirty dancing at the “kosher” pizza place (N.B. – I know, no evidence of that here), kosher certifying rabbi Jones needs to think about and maybe pass that on to the (private actors) who pay in respect of his certification fees. Not religion – just capitalism and honest dealing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/63 "2010-10-12T14:01:30Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > One might ask the same question about the rabbi’s actions toward the non-Hasidic patrons of a restaurant, which by choice is catering to Jews and gentiles. > > That’s between the rabbi, the restaurant owner, and (maybe) the other residents of the neighborhood, who at least are aware they are living in a Hassidic area and so are used to what that means. That they check their rights at the door, apparently. What if the certifying organization decided that it was inappropriate to eat in the same restaurant as a black person? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/64 "2010-10-12T14:10:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > They do not want a Jew to walk in to, say, a place that features female singers in violation of Jewish law for him to listen to, and that Jew will be able to point to that Rabbi’s name on the certificate on the door giving him a sense of permission…even if the certificate clearly says it refers only to the food. Well, there’s always takeout. The difference, though, is that you can easily tell something like that yourself. You can walk into the place and see with your own eyes that a woman is singing. So it’s up to you to decide for yourself if you want to eat in a place that has that, and I don’t think the Jew that points to that Rabbi’s name on the certificate on the door as justification when he knows that there are female singers and how that Rabbi feels about that is acting in good faith. But you can’t easily tell if the food in a place is kosher just by looking. That’s why the certifications. > [@](#): > > But there aren’t plenty of Kashrut organizations composed of non-Haredi Rabbis. The Orthodox Union is modern Orthodox, and I know at least some of the Washington Vaad is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/65 "2010-10-12T14:15:59Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > This is why religion is so screwed up, and both Judaism and Islam are the worst. Religion should be about what the observer does, not what the business does. If the Jew (or Muslim or whatever) wants to observe the sabbath that is their prerogative, but whether or not the business does should not matter. In this case, it doesn’t. No-one is _forcing_ the restaurant to get certified - that is totally voluntary on their part. They do it because they feel it gives them an advantage over non-certified places. They can chuck this rabbi out on his ear if they want to (or more realistically, either forgo certification altogether or find a more reasonable certifiying organization that only concerntrates on the food - many competing ones exist). To my mind, this is much less egregious than those religious folks who, confident that they are morally correct, seek to enlist some sort of gov’t authority to legislate behaviour for everyone - this rabbi, excessive though he may be, is only legislating behaviour for someone _who has paid him for the privilege_. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/66 "2010-10-12T14:24:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Aaand we’re hitting once again on that grand old Doper tradition of asking a question about Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox practice on or almost on Shabbas. 😃 And on Rosh Hodesh no less. OTTOMH I am not aware of a kashrut certification for a restaurant that requires monitoring the patrons and the patrons’ conduct. However, I am not near NYC and am not up on the requirements of the particular certification agency. **Zev** , please pick up the white courtesy telephone for a message. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/67 "2010-10-12T15:34:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@suranyi](#): > > > > That’s between the rabbi, the restaurant owner, and (maybe) the other residents of the neighborhood, who at least are aware they are living in a Hassidic area and so are used to what that means. > > That they check their rights at the door, apparently. > > What if the certifying organization decided that it was inappropriate to eat in the same restaurant as a black person? What rights? Discrimination due to race is illegal. But the restaurant owner can have any rules he wants regarding the bahavior of his patrons, and if he wants to enforce certain rules in order to comply with a particular certification authority, it’s up to him. And that’s not illegal. Any restaurant anywhere can evict a patron not complying with the restaurant’s rules, as long is it is not for a specifically illegal reason. I mean really, what rights do you think are “checked at the door”? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/68 "2010-10-12T21:17:13Z")
Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > Well, there’s always takeout. And no doubt Kashrut agencies do not have certain concerns regarding take-out places that they have for sit-down restaurants. > [@](#): > > The difference, though, is that you can easily tell something like that yourself. You can walk into the place and see with your own eyes that a woman is singing. So it’s up to you to decide for yourself if you want to eat in a place that has that, and I don’t think the Jew that points to that Rabbi’s name on the certificate on the door as justification when he knows that there are female singers and how that Rabbi feels about that is acting in good faith. But you can’t easily tell if the food in a place is kosher just by looking. That’s why the certifications. You’d think so, right? But you would not believe how easy it is for people to take words out of context and apply them where not truly applicable. A rabbi might be very well able to say with a clean conscience that “I have certified only the food, and anything else is the consumer’s knowing choice.” And such Rabbis will certify such places. Other Rabbis will not feel their conscience is clean if they think their approval on some aspect of the establishment will be likely to lead to sinful behavior. As with practically all matters of conscience in this day and age, it’s a personal choice, but very much a valid one for a Rabbi to make. > [@](#): > > The Orthodox Union is modern Orthodox, and I know at least some of the Washington Vaad is. I believe the line between “modern Orthodox” and “Haredi” is a lot thinner than you seem to think, when it comes to the Rabbinic standards. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/69 "2010-10-13T08:29:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@bengangmo](#): > > > > This is why religion is so screwed up, and both Judaism and Islam are the worst. Religion should be about what the observer does, not what the business does. If the Jew (or Muslim or whatever) wants to observe the sabbath that is their prerogative, but whether or not the business does should not matter. > > In this case, it doesn’t. No-one is _forcing_ the restaurant to get certified - that is totally voluntary on their part. They do it because they feel it gives them an advantage over non-certified places. > > They can chuck this rabbi out on his ear if they want to (or more realistically, either forgo certification altogether or find a more reasonable certifiying organization that only concerntrates on the food - many competing ones exist). > > To my mind, this is much less egregious than those religious folks who, confident that they are morally correct, seek to enlist some sort of gov’t authority to legislate behaviour for everyone - this rabbi, excessive though he may be, is only legislating behaviour for someone _who has paid him for the privilege_. The problem that I have with it, is that its too close to “thought police” Religion should be to help me with my thoughts and my thoughts only, how someone else behaves should not have an impact. Nor should how someone else behaves in my presence. What they do is their problem. Really, its a sin for me if, I sit down, start eating my dinner, and then someone hugs his girlfriend in front of me? What should I have done, stood up and faced the wall? Not trying to be an arsehole or target you in anyway, just trying to explain how it feels to me. I felt much the same when my kid came home from church and said that Jesus would save me…WTF – save me from what and who the hell said I wanted saving? I was quite pissed that people had been putting ideas into her head (she’s not yet 6) that I somehow needed saving. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/70 "2010-10-13T16:12:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > In this case, it doesn’t. No-one is _forcing_ the restaurant to get certified - that is totally voluntary on their part. They do it because they feel it gives them an advantage over non-certified places. > > > > They can chuck this rabbi out on his ear if they want to (or more realistically, either forgo certification altogether or find a more reasonable certifiying organization that only concerntrates on the food - many competing ones exist). > > > > To my mind, this is much less egregious than those religious folks who, confident that they are morally correct, seek to enlist some sort of gov’t authority to legislate behaviour for everyone - this rabbi, excessive though he may be, is only legislating behaviour for someone _who has paid him for the privilege_. > > The problem that I have with it, is that its too close to “thought police” Religion should be to help me with my thoughts and my thoughts only, how someone else behaves should not have an impact. Nor should how someone else behaves in my presence. What they do is their problem. > > Really, its a sin for me if, I sit down, start eating my dinner, and then someone hugs his girlfriend in front of me? What should I have done, stood up and faced the wall? > > Not trying to be an arsehole or target you in anyway, just trying to explain how it feels to me. > > I felt much the same when my kid came home from church and said that Jesus would save me…WTF – save me from what and who the hell said I wanted saving? I was quite pissed that people had been putting ideas into her head (she’s not yet 6) that I somehow needed saving. But see, this is how Judaism, especially Orthodox Judaism is different than (some) other religions. What you believe is of some importance, but what you DO is what is really important. How you act in the world is what sets you apart as a Jew, and there are an incredible number of rules on how to act that you must follow. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/71 "2010-10-13T16:15:41Z")
bengangmo: > [@](#): > > Really, its a sin for me if, I sit down, start eating my dinner, and then someone hugs his girlfriend in front of me? What should I have done, stood up and faced the wall? Of course that’s not a sin for you. The point of the Rabbi in the OP’s situation is that if the restaurant is attractive as a hangout for Jewish male and female singles who are likely to “hook up”, then he would not attach his name to the establishment and thereby to encourage such a sinful situation. However Kosher the food itself might be, the Rabbi will not knowingly encourage recreational (as opposed to matrimonial-minded) dating amongst Jewish singles, which he sees as, if not sinful in and of itself, a gateway to sin. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/72 "2010-10-13T16:41:32Z")
Hasidic men can’t listen to women singing?! I had no idea about that till now. I feel bad for them. There’s so much they’re missing out on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/73 "2010-10-13T16:44:37Z")
_whips out Titanic soundtrack_ And yet, somehow it seems they’ve got the better end of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/74 "2010-10-13T16:57:08Z")
I see a life without the Titanic soundtrack and raise you a life without ever having known the joy that is Tina Turner’s voice. Anyway, I’m with **Manda JO**. > [@MandaJo](#): > > To take the religious aspect out of it, imagine if there were an organization that certified restaurants as “vegan” or “cruelty-free” or something. I would totally defend the right of such an organization to exist, but if I found out that the only way you could get a “vegan” certificate was if your customers looked hip and counter-culture enough–then yeah, I would think they were kind of a dick organization because they were piggy-backing on one deeply held set of beliefs to push another agenda. They may be allowed to do it, but I agree that they’re being jerks by using one thing (the kosher food) to push the other agenda–that of a more modest lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/75 "2010-10-13T18:14:41Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I stopped paying attention at "They were gone by 9, shortly after which the man in black appeared. … "… > > The man in black. Johnny Cash. Either him, or the Dread Pirate Roberts. I lost all concentration, right there 😃 And then the man in black held up a flashy thingie, and I forgot about the whole incident. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/76 "2010-10-13T21:51:54Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > The problem that I have with it, is that its too close to “thought police” Religion should be to help me with my thoughts and my thoughts only, how someone else behaves should not have an impact. Nor should how someone else behaves in my presence. What they do is their problem. > > Really, its a sin for me if, I sit down, start eating my dinner, and then someone hugs his girlfriend in front of me? What should I have done, stood up and faced the wall? > > Not trying to be an arsehole or target you in anyway, just trying to explain how it feels to me. > > I felt much the same when my kid came home from church and said that Jesus would save me…WTF – save me from what and who the hell said I wanted saving? I was quite pissed that people had been putting ideas into her head (she’s not yet 6) that I somehow needed saving. Judaism isn’t so much about “thoughts” as it is about how one acts in their day-to-day life. It differs from Christianity in this. Hence its focus, at least in its more orthodox manifestations, on the minutae of such details as eating foods the proper way. Not that I agree with them or follow their rules - I don’t. But the restaurant has voluntarily agreed to do so, and what is more, to have their rule-following certified by an offcial they have hired for this purpose. Seems to me nothing inherently wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/77 "2010-10-13T22:14:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me nothing inherently wrong with that. Nope. I do however have a problem being videotaped in a restaurant that someone will peruse to be sure I am following their law. Either I am part of their sect and it would bother me to think the rabbi is essentially looking over my shoulder and what will happen if I make any transgression or I am a gentile and do not overly care if the rabbi is bugged I kissed my girlfriend but it would still bother me to be on camera on this fashion (what if I laugh and squirt soda out my nose…will it end up on YouTube?). I have no problem with cameras if the video just sits and does nothing except to act as evidence if a crime occurs (as in against state/federal law). I suppose if the guy posts a sign informing customers that their behavior is being videotaped and will be reviewed there is no problem. (And this assumes the restaurant capitulates to handing over the video.) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/78 "2010-10-21T07:25:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nope. > I suppose if the guy posts a sign informing customers that their behavior is being videotaped and will be reviewed there is no problem. > > (And this assumes the restaurant capitulates to handing over the video.) That’s a good point, you could add next to the kosher food sign that the local Rabbi will be reviewing your behavior on video tapes too. If the congregation loves its over-ruling Rabbi, it should very much welcome that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/79 "2010-10-23T08:22:32Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I felt much the same when my kid **came home from church** and said that Jesus would save me…WTF – save me from what and who the hell said I wanted saving? I was quite pissed that people had been putting ideas into her head (she’s not yet 6) that I somehow needed saving. Er. Um. Am I being obtuse? You’re upset because you sent the child to church and she came home talking about Jesus? Now, if I go to the kosher deli or to the halal grocery store and I get the stink-eye because my hair is uncovered, that’s annoying because I’m in a place whose purpose, while specialized toward people with a religious bent, is not specifically created for the spread and teaching of that religion. If I’m walking into a synagogue or a mosque, I will ask beforehand how I can avoid offending the inhabitants while inside. If I don’t think the requests are reasonable, I just won’t go in. Stores are different. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503/80 "2010-10-23T11:48:26Z")
The owners made a conscious choice about the image of their restaraunt when they decided to be vouched for Kosher by a Rabbi. This also meant that they had a specific customer base in mind, though like all businesses they’re happy to accept other custom if they behave according to their standards . Personally I like women singers but if I went to a kosher place I wouldn’t complain about their lack of them. I know of more then a few places in the U.K. (totally non religious)where if people start getting smoochy they’re asked to pack it in or leave. This on the grounds that the other customers find it cheesy and distateful.(Get a room why don’t you !) If you don’t like Flock wallpaper then don’t go to a curry house. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kosher-restaurant-certification-authority-wants-surveillance-video-of-dining-area/556503.md?page=3)