# Kucinich Is Right on Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921 "2012-05-24T05:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/81 "2012-05-26T03:10:14Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re right. Nobody rational believes that the sanctions are the run-up to war. That’s why Kucinich only sees 10 or maybe 11 congressman agree with him in that madhouse. It’s good that you don’t bother at all with the argument the rational opposition is actually making. Why assume that Kucinich is telling the truth? It’s in Kucinich’s interest both to paint himself as a strong voice against war with Iran (which I think that he in reality is) and at the same time say that there’s a strong drumbeat for war with Iran in the Congress which he has been heroically fighting against. Congressman Kucinich’s entire political persona is that of the lone progressive voice in the wilderness standing up for average Americans in the face of the entrenched political elite. I don’t think that this is just pretense. He really believes that he’s the sole voice standing up for average Americans and there actually is some sort of plan by special interests who want a war with Iran, and views everything through that lens. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/82 "2012-05-26T03:25:52Z")
I also don’t know that I’d be so quick to trust a Russian government channel about news on Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/83 "2012-05-26T04:19:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hrmm… the ‘rational opposition’, opposing “the track we are on” and wanting the UN to handle things instead. Like [the UN sanctions against Iran?](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2010/sc9948.doc.htm) > Would you, perhaps, care to choose another adjective to describe the opposition? Rational does not seem particularly apt, is all. Why didn’t you link to a list or lists of current and future sanctions that are not approved of via the UN? Rational people can certainly feel that violations of a UN treaty, a treaty monitored by a UN department, and enforced by UN sanctions should be handled ENTIRELY by the UN. Make note of that word: entirely. Entirely. The next time you post links to facts, post links to all of them and then contrast them to the argument you are quoting. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > In that they’re political events taking place in the Middle East and related to investigations of WMD’s, yes. Of course, being unable to differentiate the events surrounding the Iraq war from what’s currently happening with Iran is hardly “rational”. Perhaps “the fallacy-driven opposition”? Since you were unable to post all the facts about the sanctions in place against Iran, I also doubt any interesting discussion can come from trying to discuss the similarities between Iraq and Iran prior to war. I would definitely love to be shown some key things I did not consider to make me feel comfortably wrong though. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Generally whenever someone claims this, it’s because they don’t have any facts to rely upon. Not only are there quite a few decent facts, they can be (and have been) cited. A lack of 100% perfect knowledge is hardly fatal to factual discussion. Unless, of course, you can prove for 100% certain that you are not in fact a brain in a jar? If there was decent respect for the set of facts brought by those with differing points of view to the table, then no, 100% is not required. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Why assume that Kucinich is telling the truth? It’s in Kucinich’s interest both to paint himself as a strong voice against war with Iran (which I think that he in reality is) and at the same time say that there’s a strong drumbeat for war with Iran in the Congress which he has been heroically fighting against. Congressman Kucinich’s entire political persona is that of the lone progressive voice in the wilderness standing up for average Americans in the face of the entrenched political elite. > > I don’t think that this is just pretense. He really believes that he’s the sole voice standing up for average Americans and there actually is some sort of plan by special interests who want a war with Iran, and views everything through that lens. The questions were leading but he did a decent job of providing what I think is a clear-headed analysis - from his point-of-view - no matter how deluded some of its elements may be. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/84 "2012-05-26T04:40:28Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why didn’t you link to a list or lists of current and future sanctions that are not approved of via the UN? Because that would be stupid, Inbred. Objecting to sanctions that non-UN entities enact, but being fine with sanctions that the UN enacts shows that there is no cogent, principled objection to sanctions and no rational objection to sanctions as a class, either, just an irrational desire to prohibit nations from regulating their own relationship with international commerce. Further, the idea that only the UN should deal with/be concerned about Iran nuking up is an absurdity. The current _global_ consensus is that Iran should not have nukes. The current _regional_ consensus is overwhelmingly against Iran nuking up and Iran doing so has already started the region on the road to nuclear brinksmanship. Your dodge about ‘not posting facts about sanctions’ is an absurdity. Your claim that without such a citation you can’t discuss differences between the situations wrt Iran and Iraq is a palpably frail evasion that evinces a general ignorance of the relevant history that one should have before opining on connections between the two situations. Your claim that we should have “decent respect for the set of facts brought by those with differing points of view to the table” is gibberish. You are entitled to your own opinions, and not your own facts. And only rational, cogent opinions are deserving of due consideration in the first place. The situation with Iran is not only clear, it has been for roughly a decade now. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/85 "2012-05-26T06:03:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Because that would be stupid, Inbred. > Objecting to sanctions that non-UN entities enact, but being fine with sanctions that the UN enacts shows that there is no cogent, principled objection to sanctions and no rational objection to sanctions as a class, either, just an irrational desire to prohibit nations from regulating their own relationship with international commerce. God this is lame. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/86 "2012-05-26T06:11:19Z")
Your admission that you have no counter argument is appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/87 "2012-05-27T21:21:03Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Those rationally opposed to the track we are on worry about the post-Obama future or the possibility that the Israeli government is not full of shit, especially if the sanctions fail to have their desired effect, which they most likely will. The facility inspections are performed by the IAEA - although there are places Iran won’t let them go - and the sanctions are very international. The Obama administration has brought on board even countries that have better relationships with Iran than the U.S. does. What is it that you do want to see that treats this issue with the gravity the situation requires but doesn’t somehow pave the way for a hypothetical war by another president? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/88 "2012-05-28T00:44:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The facility inspections are performed by the IAEA - although there are places Iran won’t let them go - and the sanctions are very international. The Obama administration has brought on board even countries that have better relationships with Iran than the U.S. does. What is it that you do want to see that treats this issue with the gravity the situation requires but doesn’t somehow pave the way for a hypothetical war by another president? A clear policy of handling the matter via the UN. If that was our policy on engaging in assassination, bombing, sabotage, sanctions, terrorist support, and warfare without an explicit attack on the USA then I would feel comfortable with the post-Obama future. The sanctions to come into effect on July 1st are not UN sanctions. Our sanctions of recent years are not UN sanctions. The assassinations are not UN mandated assassinations. The terrorist support is not UN mandated terrorist support. The sabotage is not UN mandated sabotage. I have hope for the July 1st sanctions actually having their intended effect but today’s news from Iran makes that seem foolish. The sanctions will fail to have their intended effect. Now for the remainder of that list, how is arming and training terrorists, assassinations, and sabotage, especially since none of these activities have a chance of knocking out the entire program, behavior that “treats this issue with the gravity the situation requires”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/89 "2012-05-28T01:30:01Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not sure if this is a debate topic - maybe everyone here agrees with Kucinich. I think he is pretty [much on the money](http://www.rt.com/news/war-iran-usa-sanctions-944/). Invading Iraq and Afghanistan has been a disaster and so would invading Iran. The US should be more focussed on peaceful diplomatic solutions. > > [http://www.rt.com/news/war-iran-usa-sanctions-944/](http://www.rt.com/news/war-iran-usa-sanctions-944/) When you say he’s “right,” do you mean right that invading would be a very bad idea, or right that invasion is a serious possibility? The consensus of this thread so far seems to be yes on the first part and no on the second. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/90 "2012-05-28T01:47:08Z")
He seems to be supporting the latter, since he says that “the US should be more focussed on peaceful diplomatic solutions” when we are focused 100% on peaceful diplomatic solutions. That’s what sanctions are, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/91 "2012-05-28T02:29:54Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > A clear policy of handling the matter via the UN. If that was our policy on engaging in assassination, bombing, sabotage, sanctions, terrorist support, and warfare without an explicit attack on the USA then I would feel comfortable with the post-Obama future. That seems bizarre to me. Everything’s fine as long as the UN is on board even if it’s violent and provocative, but if the UN isn’t on board, diplomatic sanctions are no good? The UN isn’t a magic , and the sanctions are international and very broad based. I realize you don’t want Obama’s successor to go to war, but I can’t see any course of action that would make that impossible if the successor were determined to do it. Bush didn’t get the UN to sign off on the 2003 invasion but he had no trouble getting some additional resolutions passed that helped make his case and was also able to make the “the sanctions aren’t working” argument. There’s nothing you can do right now to unilaterally prevent an invasion in five or 10 years. What would make that less likely is diplomacy, sanctions, and concessions from Iran including fuller inspections and steps to make it clear they won’t go ahead and develop nuclear weapons. > [@](#): > > I have hope for the July 1st sanctions actually having their intended effect but today’s news from Iran makes that seem foolish. The sanctions will fail to have their intended effect. That depends on what kind of position Iran finds itself in economically and politically some time from now. I’m not sure how you think the UN makes any of this more effective. > [@](#): > > Now for the remainder of that list, how is arming and training terrorists, assassinations, and sabotage, especially since none of these activities have a chance of knocking out the entire program, behavior that “treats this issue with the gravity the situation requires”? Yes, it almost sounds like somebody’s really worried about what might happen if Iran has nuclear weapons given the fanaticism of the clerics and their longstanding links to terrorists and may be willing to kill people to slow down the progress of the program. Too bad nobody is taking it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/92 "2012-05-28T02:44:00Z")
Look, does anybody here – anybody at all – wish to argue that any kind of American or Israeli military action against Iran is seriously worth considering? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/93 "2012-05-28T02:59:36Z")
I don’t want Obama or his successor attacking Iran militarily or economically without it being handled via the UN. All actions that the US may do unilaterally or with our typical allies on board, are far more effective if handled via the UN. The sanctions are more likely to fail if large industrial powers are not going along with it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/94 "2012-05-28T03:19:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, it almost sounds like somebody’s really worried about what might happen if Iran has nuclear weapons given the fanaticism of the clerics and their longstanding links to terrorists and may be willing to kill people to slow down the progress of the program. Okay okay, I admit it, it’s me. But I always wanted to learn to ride a motorcycle anyways. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/95 "2012-05-28T03:25:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay okay, I admit it, it’s me. > But I always wanted to learn to ride a motorcycle anyways. Do you have a hockey mask? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/96 "2012-05-28T03:32:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, does anybody here – anybody at all – wish to argue that any kind of American or Israeli military action against Iran is seriously worth considering? I don’t. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I don’t want Obama or his successor attacking Iran militarily or economically without it being handled via the UN. All actions that the US may do unilaterally or with our typical allies on board, are far more effective if handled via the UN. The sanctions are more likely to fail if large industrial powers are not going along with it. And if Russia and China are opposed to the idea, which I understand they are, your suggestion is what? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/97 "2012-05-28T03:36:09Z")
Of course, all bets are off if a homegrown civil war breaks out in Iran. Then the idea of foreign intervention would become a whole lot more tempting to all concerned. But I don’t see anything like that happening this year or next. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/98 "2012-05-28T07:03:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And if Russia and China are opposed to the idea, which I understand they are, your suggestion is what? And India. The only viable answer is to continue to work via the UN to develop a unified approach. China and Russia do oppose an Iranian nuclear weapon. I don’t know why they seem to doubt the weapons program… ---
**Author:** ![ultom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/8dc957/32.png) [@ultom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultom)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/99 "2012-05-28T12:35:49Z")
To be honest I wonder why so many talks about Iran and nothing about those ones who can use it technologies or assist it in some way. Recently uranium fields were located in Armenia and Georgia strives to get access to these resources but got no technology for extraction. Iran is the only party in the region that can provide Georgia with it, of course, for its part of uranium ore while Georgian contacts with Armenia will be an official cover for their business. In fine, Saakashvili will enrich himself while Georgia in social and economical deadlock, Ahmadinejad will get uranium for his program! Iran’s president intensions are clear, but Saakashvili’s are not! What if he wants to have his own dirty bomb and use it as weapon of squeal… The situation becomes too dangerous and Saakashvili as well as everyone who has relation to Iran’s program must be punished! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921/100 "2012-05-28T13:16:37Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I don’t know why they seem to doubt the weapons program… Because despite the fact that the IAEA certified that Iran’s nuclear program has an undeniable military dimension, they do a lot of business with Iran and don’t want to give up the cash. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kucinich-is-right-on-iran/622921.md?page=6)