# Kudos for Gfactor regarding Carol Stream **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 29, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328 "2009-11-29T14:00:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/101 "2009-12-08T07:03:59Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > It’s fucking rude as hell, doesn’t matter the forum. No human being on this earth deserves to be called IT. Please stop. Okay guys, I gotta step up here, and get this off my chest. Regardless of whether or not I agree with \*\*Carol \*\*on other issues, I must say I do agree with her on this issue. It IS rather demeaning and cruel to taunt someone about these sort of thing. I guess I’ve just seen plenty of MtF, FtM, transgenders, females and guys as well all who’ve been taunted like this. Usually it stopped in high school though. As much as you guys think it’s funny to annoy Carol with this sort of thing, it really is cruel, especially outside of the pit- it’s just school yard bullying. I understand your issues with the gender thing, though others have pointed out the gender of Carol, but still- to refer to someone repeated as “It” is really just cruel and unnecessary. It’s one thing to use it when you don’t know the gender of a poster and are unsure the first time or so. But I’ve noticed this has been going on quite a bit in regards to this one poster, and it really does sadden me. Jokes, insults, and wise cracks are all awesome, and I love them as much as the next person, but some things… well are really petty and cruel. I like a lot of you posters, but when I see this playing out, it just makes me cringe a bit on the inside. If you want to Pit her, then by all means pit her, if you want to insult her or make a wise crack- go for that (in the right forums for it). But to just go around and mock her for her gender issues? That’s… not what I like to think of my fellow Dopers as being those sort of people, ya know? So just a request, poster to poster here, can we just cut back on the “it” remarks? We get it, she doesn’t like the comments, there’s no need to agitate her further by demeaning her with those words and comments. Don’t be jerks. Thanks guys for reading this, -R /end my three cents. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/102 "2009-12-08T07:25:43Z")
Carol has every “it” coming to her ToeJam. We know she finds it acceptable to call people dumb snatches. Perhaps, “maybe its not a snatch” is a reasonable alternative to “it”. What do you think Carol? I’m just going to call it how it is. Carol knows exactly what she is doing. Since she can’t post in the pitt where she would never even cry about this anyways, she is going to bait people in to breaking the rules with her ridicolous oh woe is me routine here in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/103 "2009-12-08T07:40:18Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > Okay guys, I gotta step up here, and get this off my chest. > > Regardless of whether or not I agree with \*\*Carol \*\*on other issues, I must say I do agree with her on this issue. It IS rather demeaning and cruel to taunt someone about these sort of thing. I guess I’ve just seen plenty of MtF, FtM, transgenders, females and guys as well all who’ve been taunted like this. Usually it stopped in high school though. > > As much as you guys think it’s funny to annoy Carol with this sort of thing, it really is cruel, especially outside of the pit- it’s just school yard bullying. I understand your issues with the gender thing, though others have pointed out the gender of Carol, but still- to refer to someone repeated as “It” is really just cruel and unnecessary. It’s one thing to use it when you don’t know the gender of a poster and are unsure the first time or so. But I’ve noticed this has been going on quite a bit in regards to this one poster, and it really does sadden me. > > Jokes, insults, and wise cracks are all awesome, and I love them as much as the next person, but some things… well are really petty and cruel. I like a lot of you posters, but when I see this playing out, it just makes me cringe a bit on the inside. If you want to Pit her, then by all means pit her, if you want to insult her or make a wise crack- go for that (in the right forums for it). > > But to just go around and mock her for her gender issues? That’s… not what I like to think of my fellow Dopers as being those sort of people, ya know? > > So just a request, poster to poster here, can we just cut back on the “it” remarks? We get it, she doesn’t like the comments, there’s no need to agitate her further by demeaning her with those words and comments. Don’t be jerks. > Thanks guys for reading this, > -R > > /end my three cents. I addressed this topic [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542325). The mods came down on the bright line idea, instead monitoring the intent of the posters. But I do wonder if it qualifies as trolling. I’ll report it and see what **xash** thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Caught\_Work](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Caught\_Work](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caught_Work)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/104 "2009-12-08T07:43:07Z")
How do you refer to someone who doesn’t have one of those pronoun thingies? We can’t call Carol Stream it, he or she. Typing Carol Stream every time you refer to Carol Stream is annoying too. In general life we refer to he or she once we’ve identified who we are talking to / about. I think courtesy should apply and if Carol Stream has a preference (whether it be Carol Streams gender or not) then Carol Stream should indicate a preference, but referring to Carol Stream each time is not how the English language is structured. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/105 "2009-12-08T07:46:38Z")
Much more eloquent than my response, which would have simply been, “Then just answer the damn question and quit making such a huge fucking deal out of the whole thing…or, barring that, grow some skin.” But I like your answer better. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/106 "2009-12-08T08:30:49Z")
Some grammar nazis may hate it, but there’s nothing wrong with ‘they’ if you don’t want to use he/she. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/107 "2009-12-08T09:27:54Z")
I don’t get all this continuing debate on her gender. It has been established by other posters here, and in previous threads by Carol Stream herself, that she’s a she. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/108 "2009-12-08T09:48:38Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > I don’t get all this continuing debate on her gender. It has been established by other posters here, and in previous threads by Carol Stream herself, that she’s a she. It has? I’m honestly not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I’ve been confused about this point also. I always thought Carol was a she, but based on some poster’s comments, I have become confused. Carol has a right to his/her privacy, but if it bothers him/her, perhaps he/she could end the confusion by posting her/his preference as to what he/she would like to be called, gender-wise “it” is harsh and unnecessary. If someone knows, or can link to a post of Carol Stream’s where his/her gender is defined by Carol Stream his/herself, then let’s put this particular matter to rest. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/109 "2009-12-08T10:00:25Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > It has? I’m honestly not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I’ve been confused about this point also. > > I always thought Carol was a she, but based on some poster’s comments, I have become confused. Carol has a right to his/her privacy, but if it bothers him/her, perhaps he/she could end the confusion by posting her/his preference as to what he/she would like to be called, gender-wise > > “it” is harsh and unnecessary. If someone knows, or can link to a post of Carol Stream’s where his/her gender is defined by Carol Stream his/herself, then let’s put this particular matter to rest. In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11862846#post11862846), **Sleeps With Butterflies** posted this: > [@](#): > > _Carol Stream (according to a[past post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9030450&postcount=182)) is a woman. She mentions her husband and that she goes to the ladies room._ and \*\*Muffin \*\*posted this: > [@](#): > > _From posts she made a long time ago, she is a housewife who does not hold employment, and takes her username from the community in which she lives with her husband. Or perhaps that persona has no base in reality._ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/110 "2009-12-08T11:01:25Z")
The speculation about gender began long before those cryptic posts, and it is my observation that **Carol Stream** encouraged the confusion, taking no small amount of satisfaction in the conjecture. Despite those later posts, and based on the entirety of **Carol Stream’s** posting history, I have concluded that **Carol Stream** is a man. Therefore, I will avoid calling him an ‘it’, and use the male pronoun from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/111 "2009-12-08T11:37:51Z")
I’m going to continue to use " It" until it tells me it’s preference.\* I don’t even care if it’s preference is Carol’s real gender at this stage, because I have zero faith in what it says, but I hate the “I’m offended that you won’t use the right pronoun to refer to me. No, I won’t tell you what it is.” game that it plays and refuse to participate. \*Assuming that it’s a “he” is sexist, assuming it’s a “she” throws it’s masculinity into question and could provoke a knife fight if we were in Brazil, and it’s now muddied the already muddied waters by dropping cryptic comments that Carol may be a transsexual. (other thread). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/112 "2009-12-08T12:07:01Z")
> [@Fiveroptic](#): > > Much more eloquent than my response, which would have simply been, “Then just answer the damn question and quit making such a huge fucking deal out of the whole thing…or, barring that, grow some skin.” But I like your answer better. I feel the same way, too. But using “her” seems to fit. Just consider the name, the post mentioned either here or in another thread about having a husband and using the Ladies’ room, and the fact that women just seem to get more upset at being identified as the wrong gender. It just makes sense to address her as female. If we really wanted to be correct, there are other personal pronouns we could use, like hir, [em](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun), or even the [singular they](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they). ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/113 "2009-12-08T12:42:28Z")
Under traditional grammar, when the sex of a person is unknown, or in referring to an individual from a group that could be either, the masculine “he” is traditionally used. Nowadays, to avoid use of the masculine only in such situations, “he/she” or “she/he” has come into play. Some writers use “she” or “he” while others alternate paragraphs. Similarly, as noted above, “they” has become commonly recognized as a singular pronoun (taking plural verb forms, however.) Modern usage has not yet formalized one particular approach, since we are in a time of grammatical changes (well, OK, language is ALWAYS in a time of grammatical changes, but you know what I mean.) Calling a person “it” rankles of being demeaning and dehumanizing. I think it’s probably not warnable, depending on the circumstances, but there are plenty of options when one is uncertain of gender. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/114 "2009-12-08T13:41:11Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > … but there are plenty of options when one is uncertain of gender. Not so in direct communication **Dex**. It might be OK when used in a general sense, but our human-interaction (even on a messageboard) requires that we use a specific he or she when in conversation with or about another person. That **Carol Stream** refuses to nominate a preferred pronoun yet gets a wee bit upset when the generic IT is used tends to indicate that we are all victims of a chain-yanking I suspect. YMMV of course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/115 "2009-12-08T14:51:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Kudos withdrawn. It appears that it was not an act of grace, but of whim. Oh NOES! :eek: Lib has _withdrawn_ his approval of you because you didn’t agree with him! :eek: How can you survive?! Will a hug help? :: hug :: …um…that felt weird to me. I assume it felt weird for you too G? Let’s _never_ mention that again…agreed? What other things can make you feel better? Got it! [Raindrops on roses](http://gallery.photo.net/photo/5844948-md.jpg) [and whiskers on kittens](http://southcarolina1670.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/ugly_cat.jpg) [Bright copper kettles](http://www.craphound.com/images/tea_maid_gallery--gt_full_width_landscape.jpg) [warm woolen mittens](http://www.reviewingbabygear.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/owl.jpg) [brown paper packages tied up with string](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Vr8Xl0cbUZA/SKMaM90ahJI/AAAAAAAAC1M/HeQr-SfDRD8/s320/Image+%3D+SUSPICIOUS+PACKAGES_crime.gif) These will relieve Lib’s disapproval’s sting. Feel better now GFactor? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/116 "2009-12-08T17:45:21Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > …um…that felt weird to me. I assume it felt weird for you too G? Let’s _never_ mention that again…agreed? Ahem. Yeah. > [@](#): > > These will relieve Lib’s disapproval’s sting. > > Feel better now GFactor? Well, sort of. I wasn’t aware that takebacks were permitted on kudos. It’ll take me a while to adjust to that. On a related note, a woman I wasn’t dating recently broke up with me by text message. It’s been a confusing time for me. As usual, I’ll muddle through somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/117 "2009-12-08T17:53:33Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Well, sort of. I wasn’t aware that takebacks were permitted on kudos. It’ll take me a while to adjust to that. On a related note, a woman I wasn’t dating recently broke up with me by text message. It’s been a confusing time for me. As usual, I’ll muddle through somehow. This may be a bad time to mention it, but you know that band we weren’t going to start together? Well, you’re out. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/118 "2009-12-08T18:20:20Z")
And you know how you weren’t going to come over to watch musicals with me? I’m not having someone else over that night, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/119 "2009-12-08T18:57:05Z")
Let’s get back on topic people. Kudos for doing something that someone approved of _can_ be rescinded. It’s like “tag-backs”. Did you call “No kudos take-backs” G-man? I don’t think so. So while some might think that a kudos take-back is a tacky petulant thing to post, but if you didn’t call “no-takebacks”, it’s your own fault. You’re a lawyer. You should _know_ this. Case of Judy Hensler vs Theodore “Beaver” Cleaver. I used to think you were a good moderator/lawyer but I take that back. Also, twickster, can I have the popcorn you didn’t make for the musicals you weren’t going watch? Can I not have it? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328/120 "2009-12-08T19:17:53Z")
Well, obviously, I haven’t not made the popcorn yet – but when I don’t, I’ll definitely not think of you as someone I might not share it with. The Twizzlers are all mine, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kudos-for-gfactor-regarding-carol-stream/519328.md?page=7)