# Kurdistan re: Turkey **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316 "2014-08-11T16:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/41 "2014-08-12T03:46:12Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Dingo-I’ve resigned myself to the fact we are the last superpower, and as,such, yes it is our responsibility to have a world with as much democracy and as little bloodshed as possible. I decline the responsibility, thank-you-very-much. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/42 "2014-08-12T07:09:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Turkey and Kurdistan have actually established a pretty good trade partnership and seem to have become allies, something that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. > > The Kurdish government has shown no desire to get any lands from Turkey and they’ve kept the PKK under control. > > Why would either side want to rock the boat. > > Frankly, I wish that the Israelis and Palestinians could take a lesson from them, and I say that as someone who’s a fan of all four groups and believes that the best friends are willing to be supportive when necessary and critical when necessary. +1 The Iraqi Kurds appear to know what they’re doing. Amazingly, Turkey has even made noises that it could live with an Iraqi Kurdistan, though they would much prefer a unified Iraq. The idea that the parties involved would welcome foreign cartographic innovators with open arms is ludicrous. The US may be the necessary hegemon, but such power is most skillfully applied with nudges rather than ill conceived mandates. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/43 "2014-08-12T07:27:44Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > The Kurds are the largest ethnic group on Earth without a nation to call their own. Incorrect. There are many larger ethnic groups that do not have a ‘nation to call their own’, and get by just fine without. My own country, India, has several. > [@](#): > > The Sunni and Shiites are fundamentally different people How are they fundamentally different people? Are Irish Catholics and Irish protestants fundamentally different people? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/44 "2014-08-12T07:36:56Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > How are they fundamentally different people? Are Irish Catholics and Irish protestants fundamentally different people? They certainly think so. In fact many if no most “Irish Protestants” in Ulster would take the phrase as an insult. They prefer the term “Ulstermen.” Most of the Nationalists don’t disagree. That said, what constitutes an ethnic group and how people identify themselves is certainly not an easy question to answer. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/45 "2014-08-12T08:19:59Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > I believe creating a Kurdish homeland would help alleviate the ethnic tension in Iraq. To achieve this, Turkey would lose territory. What’s the carrot we could extend to them to compensate? Nothing. There is nothing that can be offered. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/46 "2014-08-12T08:50:57Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Dingo-I’ve resigned myself to the fact we are the last superpower, and as,such, yes it is our responsibility to have a world with as much democracy and as little bloodshed as possible. Please. Please. Stop. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/47 "2014-08-12T11:06:33Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > My next suggestion would have been renegotiating some of the treaties around the Bosporus and the Dardanelles to give the Turks more economic power over the trade going through there, but I doubt the extortionate tariffs required would do anything but make that trade dry up. Good luck getting Putin to sign up for that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/48 "2014-08-12T11:32:05Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Dingo-I’ve resigned myself to the fact we are the last superpower, and as,such, yes it is our responsibility to have a world with as much democracy and as little bloodshed as possible. Then go on ahead. We’ll wait here. Write and tell us how it works out. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/49 "2014-08-12T11:37:08Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Incorrect. There are many larger ethnic groups that do not have a ‘nation to call their own’, and get by just fine without. My own country, India, has several. > > How are they fundamentally different people? Are Irish Catholics and Irish protestants fundamentally different people? Well I guess if it takes very little for 2 groups sharing a territory to have at each other then we can treat them as ‘different people’. Enough actors in the different ethnic/religious groups were at each other’s throats in Iraq PDQ. And even after all these years of peace in Northern Ireland I don’t think it’d take a lot to reignite things. On another (game) board I ended up having a heated discussion with a Serb regarding Kosovo and events that happened in the Middle Ages were a burning sense of anger and injustice to him. This is something we in the West find hard to understand. The Shia-Sunni split is really fundamental and provide dry tinder for any trouble-makers. It’s even more dangerous in places where election results are treated as ‘winner-takes-all’. It’s utter insanity but anywhere religion and/or ethnicity forms part of a primary identity trouble lies just below the surface. We see it everywhere from northern Ireland, through Eastern Europe to India and Pakistan via the Middle East and Africa. It just takes so little to put groups of people at each other’s throats. Humans can be really depressing. edited to add; And I’m not excluding western europe from this. Hell, in some parts of the UK supporting a different football team will nearly do it. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/50 "2014-08-12T11:48:28Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Incorrect. There are many larger ethnic groups that do not have a ‘nation to call their own’, and get by just fine without. My own country, India, has several. Just a quick link to note that the Kurds would appear [to be (joint) third in number of the ethnic groups without a state to call their own](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation#Claims_of_stateless_nations), in terms of population. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/51 "2014-08-12T12:03:28Z")
Are there many (any) good examples of nations giving up a part of their territory for the greater good? I’m thinking if some American Indian tribe really wanted to mesh with one in Canada and wanted to take half of Montana with it, there is no way that would happen. While I do think it would be a great solution in concept, it’s wholly unworkable, so it’s a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/52 "2014-08-12T12:58:26Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Are there many (any) good examples of nations giving up a part of their territory for the greater good? > > I’m thinking if some American Indian tribe really wanted to mesh with one in Canada and wanted to take half of Montana with it, there is no way that would happen. > > While I do think it would be a great solution in concept, it’s wholly unworkable, so it’s a non-starter. None come to mind. Plenty of examples of lost lands becoming cases of seething resentment and future wars spring to mind though. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/53 "2014-08-12T13:10:22Z")
Unfortunately we all know that even if everyone in Iraq magically agreed on the borders of Kurdistan it wouldn’t stick for more than a few years. Kurds on the outside, in Turkey, Syria and Iran would want in. Then those govts would crack down and nationalist pressures would fan the flames in Kurdistan. Take a look at [this map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan#mediaviewer/File:Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg) and see how small the iraq Kurd area is compared to the totality of Kurdish occupied areas. An independent Kurdistan built from the Iraq are may be inevitable but it’ll be the cause of conflict on down the line. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/54 "2014-08-12T15:30:41Z")
And for fun, you can compare maps of Greater Kurdistan to Greater Armenia or Western Armenia. Who gets Lake Van? (In reality, of course, the Armenian genocide largely solved that problem with no lasting consequences for Turkey, a lesson that IS seems to have learned well.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/55 "2014-08-12T15:45:12Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > And for fun, you can compare maps of Greater Kurdistan to Greater Armenia or Western Armenia. Who gets Lake Van? (In reality, of course, the Armenian genocide largely solved that problem with no lasting consequences for Turkey, a lesson that IS seems to have learned well.) Armenia will probably wake up one day and find itself part of Russia sooner or later so my guess is -‘President-For-Life’ Putin. I’m sure he’ll look all manly swimming in it. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/56 "2014-08-12T17:39:23Z")
Just saw on CNN, Farza Zakaria (know I butchered his name) agrees with the consensus of this thread: partition is an untenable solution. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/57 "2014-08-12T18:23:35Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Are there many (any) good examples of nations giving up a part of their territory for the greater good? > > […] > > While I do think it would be a great solution in concept, it’s wholly unworkable, so it’s a non-starter. > [@tagos](#): > > None come to mind. Plenty of examples of lost lands becoming cases of seething resentment and future wars spring to mind though. Sweden peacefully giving up Norway in 1905 worked out just fine for all the parties involved. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/58 "2014-08-13T02:17:30Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > Just a quick link to note that the Kurds would appear [to be (joint) third in number of the ethnic groups without a state to call their own](https://boards.straightdope.com/wiki/Stateless_nation#Claims_of_stateless_nations), in terms of population. That’s only because that page is missing plenty of ethnicities. Some from India that I can name off the top of my head are Biharis (80 million in India, some in Pakistan), Teluguites(70 million) and Punjabis(~30 million in India and \>50 million in Pakistan). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/59 "2014-08-13T02:37:13Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > That’s only because that page is missing plenty of ethnicities. Some from India that I can name off the top of my head are Biharis (80 million in India, some in Pakistan), Teluguites(70 million) and Punjabis(~30 million in India and \>50 million in Pakistan). Ah. Here’s the rub - That page is “a List of the largest groups without a nation of their own for which an autonomist and secessionist movements is known to exist” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316/60 "2014-08-13T09:14:19Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Sweden peacefully giving up Norway in 1905 worked out just fine for all the parties involved. That was a dissolution of a union between 2 states under 1 monarch, not Sweden ceding territory. The closest but not very close analogy would be either decolonisation or more likely - the breakup of the USSR. And that’s continually causing trouble as Russia basically intends to get back what it can get away with getting back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurdistan-re-turkey/695316.md?page=4)