# Kurds = Hittites? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619 "2005-06-09T17:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/61 "2013-07-22T02:10:51Z")
I like to think that, as Troy was a vassal state of the Hittite Empire, Priam or Paris was at Kadesh. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/62 "2013-07-22T02:28:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I like to think that, as Troy was a vassal state of the Hittite Empire, Priam or Paris was at Kadesh. 🙂 Don’t be silly. Paris is in France. Oh wait, are you saying they moved it from Turkey? So the French are Hittites? Wow. The rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/63 "2013-07-22T03:16:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Don’t be silly. Paris is in France. > > Oh wait, are you saying they moved it from Turkey? > > So the French are Hittites? > > Wow. The rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper. Worse yet, they’re Jews. I mean, if they really say Kadesh. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/64 "2013-07-22T05:39:54Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And here I was expecting this thread to have something to do with Wisconsin and Cheese. > > Oh. My. God. > > The people of Wisconsin are Hittites. I see it now! That explains the cheese! Well, some of them are [Hutterites.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/65 "2013-07-22T06:23:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Don’t be silly. Paris is in France. No, Paris is in Texas. I’ve been there. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/67 "2013-07-22T09:53:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > _Little Miss Muffet > Sat on a tuffet, > Eating her curds and whey; > Along came a spider, > Who sat down beside her > And frightened Miss Muffet away._ > > This is an obvious historical allegory. > > Little Miss Muffet represents the Sultan, who was kept in a state of isolation and decadence - like a harem member. So he is portrayed as a little girl. The Sultan ruled the Ottoman Empire - sitting on a tuffet, which as noted is a synonym for an ottoman footstool. From this position he was oppressing (eating) the curds (the Kurds) and the whey (the Armenians, derived from _Hayrenik_, the Armenian word for Fatherland and the name of the Armenian separatist movement). So along came the spider (the British Empire with its reach all over the world) to first prop up the Sultan and then overthrow him. I love this ! People often say, in all seriousness (I realise that the above, is in jest) that many nursery rhymes were originally political satire – “Mary quite contrary”, etc. I tend to suspect that they might always have been just nursery rhymes; and the “satire” stuff, crap dreamed up to impress people. Anyway, this Miss Muffet job is the most ingenious and imaginative such exercise that I’ve ever come across. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/68 "2013-07-22T10:33:12Z")
Can we get **Aram** back? I bet that with the slightest baiting we could get him to serve up with a frothy helping of Armenian Massacre denial, or at least of the Kurd’s participation in it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/69 "2013-07-22T12:06:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I like to think that, as Troy was a vassal state of the Hittite Empire, Priam or Paris was at Kadesh. 🙂 . . . when the walls fell. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/70 "2013-07-22T13:09:28Z")
It’s actually quite clear that the stories of the supposed origins of nursery rhymes as the descriptions of political and historical events are pretty much all wrong: > **[Is 'Ring Around the Rosie' About the Black Plague?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ring-around-rosie/)** > > The nursery rhyme 'Ring Around the Rosie' is not about the Black Plague. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/71 "2013-07-22T14:06:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > His original name was “Hittitler”. Hittitler? I never touched her! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/72 "2013-07-22T14:43:52Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > I love this ! > > People often say, in all seriousness (I realise that the above, is in jest) that many nursery rhymes were originally political satire – “Mary quite contrary”, etc. See [_Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind the Rhyme,_](http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Words-Lightly-Thrown-Reason/dp/B001G8WV8Y) by Chris Roberts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/73 "2013-07-22T16:10:56Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > People often say, in all seriousness (I realise that the above, is in jest) that many nursery rhymes were originally political satire – “Mary quite contrary”, etc. I tend to suspect that they might always have been just nursery rhymes; and the “satire” stuff, crap dreamed up to impress people. Anyway, this Miss Muffet job is the most ingenious and imaginative such exercise that I’ve ever come across. Thanks. I was surprised at how well it came together when I started working on it. For anyone who may have thought I was serious, I’ll point out the poem was written about a hundred years before the events I described. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/74 "2013-07-22T16:50:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Thanks. I was surprised at how well it came together when I started working on it. > > For anyone who may have thought I was serious, I’ll point out the poem was written about a hundred years before the events I described. You’re welcome. I do feel that with sufficient ingenuity and twisted-mindedness, any bit of inane rhyming can be made out to be commentary on any political or historical situation, from any age. I don’t rule out, some such rhymes being indeed initially socio-political. In recent posts, Wendell Wagner would seem to be indicating that the popular explanation of one particular rhyme as such, is a load of bull; while BrainGlutton, is on the “they _were_ commentary / satire” side. I just gut-feel that folk have a tendency to mistakenly over-intellectualise things. Personally – though not Catholic, I have rather a soft spot for our Mary Tudor; and hope that the interpretation of the “Quite contrary” rhyme about her, which has the silver bells and cockleshells and pretty maids, referring to instruments of torture – is mistaken. I generally gather that she suffers to some extent, from “the victors writing the history”; and that for all her extreme Catholic zeal, she was personally a decent character and a kindly soul, who greatly wished that her subjects might be brought back to the true faith by non-violent and reasoned persuasion and preaching, not by coercion… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/75 "2013-07-22T21:16:59Z")
The only Hittites I know of were from the first Age of Empires game. They weren’t too good because, even though they had double siege weapon HP and +1 archery range, they couldn’t build any Ballistas. I hope modern Kurds, if they are the same people, solved this technological mistake ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/76 "2013-07-22T22:19:38Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > In recent posts, Wendell Wagner would seem to be indicating that the popular explanation of one particular rhyme as such, is a load of bull; while BrainGlutton, is on the “they _were_ commentary / satire” side. **Some** of them were. E.g., I doubt Marjorie Daw or Solomon Grundy stands for any historical figure. Sometimes a rhyme is only a rhyme. But some nursery rhymes have known histories. “Hark, Hark, the Dogs Do Bark” is **definitely** political. This is a much more interesting subject than the Hittites. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/77 "2013-07-24T12:25:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This is a much more interesting subject than the Hittites. Blasphemer!! I’d stay away from mirrors if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/78 "2013-07-24T14:09:13Z")
Wouldn’t it be cool to hit on a Hittite? ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/79 "2013-07-24T18:04:18Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The only Hittites I know of were from the first Age of Empires game. They weren’t too good because, even though they had double siege weapon HP and +1 archery range, they couldn’t build any Ballistas. I hope modern Kurds, if they are the same people, solved this technological mistake They did actually! I was up in Kurdistan (Kirkuk) fairly recently and they’d moved to +3 AK-47’s and +9 RPG’s, along with a few other tricky things like mortars and a small bit of artillery and even armor! Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/80 "2013-07-24T20:14:09Z")
Every time I see this thread title, it morphs in my brain to something about herds of kittens. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619/81 "2013-07-24T22:54:20Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Every time I see this thread title, it morphs in my brain to something about herds of kittens. “Cry, ‘Kerfuffle!’ And let slip the kits of war!” – _Julius Felis,_ Whiskers Shakespeare [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kurds-hittites/307619.md?page=5)