# Kuzari: Round Two **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643 "2011-01-06T19:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/61 "2011-01-07T18:26:45Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Heh, in fairness I don’t even know if what I presented was accurate - it’s a foggy memory of mine… Well, I believe you. And, I think my mother, her father, his father, his mother, her father, and his mother also believe you. We’re practically in fact-land! Just give it a few more generations. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/62 "2011-01-07T18:30:14Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Isn’t there a tribe in Africa that believes that their ancestors came from the Dogone star? > > This is a fuzzy memory and may have come from a UFO related cite…I don’t even know if the ‘Dogone’ star is accurate. I remember reading about a tribe in Africa (I think they were called the Dogones or something similar) who worshiped the star Sirius. They told some explorers/anthropologists (in the 1920s or 1930s maybe) about how Sirius is a binary star system, but they were just a primitive tribe - how did they know that? If you’re a UFO nut or other gullible person, you naturally think that they were visited by aliens from there. Normal people would suggest that maybe the Dogones had heard about it from previous missionaries, who would possibly have known about Sirius being binary which had been discovered decades earlier, and upon seeing that the Dogones worshiped Sirius, informed them of this interesting tidbit. So who told them - travelling missionaries, or space aliens? We may never know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/63 "2011-01-07T18:33:45Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Isn’t there a tribe in Africa that believes that their ancestors came from the Dogone star? > This is a fuzzy memory and may have come from a UFO related cite…I don’t even know if the ‘Dogone’ star is accurate. Sounds like a muddled reference to the Dogon people of Mali, who allegedly knew about Sirius’ companion star despite having no telescopes to observe it. > **[Dogon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon#Dogon_and_Sirius)** > > Dogon may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/64 "2011-01-07T18:43:31Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I remember reading about a tribe in Africa (I think they were called the Dogones or something similar) who worshiped the star Sirius. They told some explorers/anthropologists (in the 1920s or 1930s maybe) about how Sirius is a binary star system, but they were just a primitive tribe - how did they know that? If you’re a UFO nut or other gullible person, you naturally think that they were visited by aliens from there. > > Normal people would suggest that maybe the Dogones had heard about it from previous missionaries, who would possibly have known about Sirius being binary which had been discovered decades earlier, and upon seeing that the Dogones worshiped Sirius, informed them of this interesting tidbit. > > So who told them - travelling missionaries, or space aliens? We may never know for sure. In fact, Sirius wasn’t a binary star at all until sufficient people in that tribe believed it to be so for sufficient generations. Once you hit the Kuzari minimum, their folklore became TRUTH and Sirius became a binary star. I know this is true because I read it in a book and the book said it was true. Plus, that tribe commemorates the splitting of the star in a national holiday, and has done so, even though the commemorations are difficult, for many generations. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/65 "2011-01-07T18:44:07Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > Hallucination. People hallucinate when looking at the sun. Happens all the time. > > What makes Kuzari compelling to many people is the duration of the event. Manna fed 2.5 million people for 14,600 days. > > Now, the response is that national history evolved. So we can’t simply trust thousands of people and their claims of miracles. More is needed to verify such claims - correct? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/66 "2011-01-07T18:51:45Z")
Wait, 2.5 million people? The population of the modern state of Israel is only 7.5 million! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/67 "2011-01-07T18:56:35Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/68 "2011-01-07T18:57:19Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Sounds like a muddled reference to the Dogon people of Mali, who allegedly knew about Sirius’ companion star despite having no telescopes to observe it. > > [Dogon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon#Dogon_and_Sirius) Hm…I believe this would be it. Seems my memory (or the book I remember reading) was might have been wrong. I don’t think the wiki page is clear about what the Dogon people believe though - was the star and the mythology related to the star all made up by Griaule? Or did they have the mythology related to space people’s and Griaule showed them the star? What do the people believe now? ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/69 "2011-01-07T19:51:27Z")
I actually have a legit question for the OP. What was your purpose in starting this thread? What were you trying to achieve here? From your posts, you are personally convinced of the truth of Kuzari, for various reasons, none of which you are interested in debating about with the other participants in the thread. Therefore, what we are left with is essentially you saying “I believe Kuzari is true” which is not exactly a debatable point. What were you trying to accomplish? Did you honestly think that by simply posting your own views and facts (using the term loosely here) and refusing to accept any counter-examples as valid or related to your original premise that you would end up changing people’s minds? I am not trying to be sarcastic here - I’m honestly confused. This is GD - DEBATES. People cannot debate if the original premise is off limits and one of the debaters will not accept any of the other side’s arguments. Did you simply want to post your OP and have everyone come in and say “Oh, what a brilliant post, I never thought of it that way before - of course I agree with you.” ?? If that’s the case, then here is my capitulation - Your OP is correct. You do, in fact, believe Kuzari is true. Wonderful. Otherwise, if you want to have a thread debate, you actually have to DEBATE with people, and not simply claim that everything they post is tangential to the point or unqualified to stand as an argument. ---
**Author:** ![abele\_derer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@abele\_derer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abele_derer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/70 "2011-01-07T21:27:23Z")
Meatros: I didn’t answer your point because I assumed you realized that the cases you cited were not nationally-experienced, nationally-commemorated events. Honestly, do you really think that the germans being anti-Semites is a national event? No. You were playing games. And I am not willing to play games. I take evidence seriously. Second, regarding the Egyptians failing to record the Exodus. Now, you claim that this refutes Kuzari. No it does not, it isn’t even relevant to Kuzari. Kuzari means that people won’t believe a false national history. The fact that the Egyptians didn’t record the Exodus DOES NOT IMPLY that they didn’t believe that the exodus happened, any more than the fact that they refused to record solar eclipses (so as not to offend the sun-god, presumably) does not imply that they did not believe in solar eclipses. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/71 "2011-01-07T21:37:52Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > Meatros: I didn’t answer your point because I assumed you realized that the cases you cited were not nationally-experienced, nationally-commemorated events. Okay - but I’m not entirely convinced that we should regard the biblical claim that the events were nationally experienced. I confess to not having read the prior thread and being new to this entire argument. That said, it seems to me to be similar to Paul’s claim that 500 saw the risen Jesus. It’s a claim in the book meant to bolster the authenticity of the very same book. I’m also not quite sure about the distinction you are making between nationally experienced and nationally commemorated. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > Second, regarding the Egyptians failing to record the Exodus. Now, you claim that this refutes Kuzari. Technically, I don’t - the author who wrote it does. I find it persuasive. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > No it does not, it isn’t even relevant to Kuzari. This does not compute - this would regard the events relevant to the kuzari. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > Kuzari means that people won’t believe a false national history. The fact that the Egyptians didn’t record the Exodus DOES NOT IMPLY that they didn’t believe that the exodus happened, any more than the fact that they refused to record solar eclipses (so as not to offend the sun-god, presumably) does not imply that they did not believe in solar eclipses. So your position is that an omitted history is not a false history? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/72 "2011-01-07T21:41:37Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > Honestly, do you really think that the germans being anti-Semites is a national event? No. You were playing games. And I am not willing to play games. I take evidence seriously. ? I’m not playing games. That said, I don’t think that all the germans were anti-semites. I would say that this was a ‘national’ (or state sponsored) belief. I don’t believe the claim that all the ancient Hebrews believed this miraculous event. I would need evidence to believe that. I would need evidence that there was an _event_ - what we currently have is evidence (Old Testament) that there was a _belief in an event_. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/73 "2011-01-07T21:44:49Z")
Once again: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If you can prove that the entire Jewish people believes the Sinai events occurred, I will accept your proof. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/74 "2011-01-07T21:59:35Z")
**A suggestion to everyone reading and/or participation in this thread** It is clear this thread meets none of the criteria of a debate. This has caused me, and I suspect others, a good bit of consternation. However the forum description reads as follows (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > For long-running discussions of the great questions of our time. This is also the place for religious debates **and (if you feel you must) witnessing**. I therefore suggest we view this discussion as what it truly is – witnessing. In that light, it is in the correct forum and the OP is responding exactly as expected. Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/75 "2011-01-08T01:56:11Z")
Oh well. Then, I have seen the light! Thank Og Almighty! I have seeeen the light! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/76 "2011-01-08T01:57:14Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > I take evidence seriously. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/77 "2011-01-08T03:45:41Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > Issue 6: And this is for the moderator: Show me a false nationally experienced event. The creation of the Lakota and Dakota peoples in the Black Hills. The battles between the Fomorians and the Tuatha Dé Danann. The rise of the Romans, through Romulus, from the survivors of Troy. Now turnabout is fair play: provide us with any examples of nationally experienced events that survived in accurate recital over hundreds of years without a written narrative or physical evidence. (Your constant odd appeals to the Temple of Solomon hardly qualify. Every hillside and tell in the Middle East with any sort of town atop it had a temple. “Remembering” a temple demonstrates only that every group accurately assumed that they actually had one.) > [@abele\_derer](#): > > Furthermore, it doesn’t make a difference how far back we can prove the belief existed. I can’t necessarily prove that people 1500 years ago believed that there was a temple in Jerusalem. PROVING THAT PEOPLE LONG AGO BELIEVED IN THE MIRACLES IS NOT ONE OF THE ELEMENTS OF KUZARI. So? I am not concerned with miracles in any way. I note that there is testimony in Kings and Chronicles that the people had forgoten the Law, itself, the very heart of the Sinai story. If they “forgot” it, then when they were “reminded” about it, the story might have been true or it might have been invented; there would have been no continuous memory among the people regarding the features of the story. That means that your whole “_It has to be true because the people would have remembered it_” is built on an utterly false premise. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > Issue 7: And this is for the moderator. I dealt with the “found scroll” in a previous thread (that you yourself closed), I suggest your read it before closing this thread. I read it. What you said there has no bearing on my point, here. In that thread you were arguing that the Torah had to have preceded the time of King Josiah. For the sake of argument, I am granting you that point, (whether or not I believe it). However, the story indicates that the Jewish people had forgotten the Torah. If they forgot it, then you no longer have a “continuous” memory of any event recorded in it. If they did not “forget” it, then your scripture is in blatant error, calling into question anything else it claims. ---
**Author:** ![abele\_derer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@abele\_derer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abele_derer)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/78 "2011-01-08T23:52:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The creation of the Lakota and Dakota peoples in the Black Hills. > The battles between the Fomorians and the Tuatha Dé Danann. > The rise of the Romans, through Romulus, from the survivors of Troy. > > Now turnabout is fair play: provide us with any examples of nationally experienced events that survived in accurate recital over hundreds of years without a written narrative or physical evidence. (Your constant odd appeals to the Temple of Solomon hardly qualify. Every hillside and tell in the Middle East with any sort of town atop it had a temple. “Remembering” a temple demonstrates only that every group accurately assumed that they actually had one.) > > So? I am not concerned with miracles in any way. I note that there is testimony in Kings and Chronicles that the people had forgoten the Law, itself, the very heart of the Sinai story. If they “forgot” it, then when they were “reminded” about it, the story might have been true or it might have been invented; there would have been no continuous memory among the people regarding the features of the story. That means that your whole “_It has to be true because the people would have remembered it_” is built on an utterly false premise. > > I read it. What you said there has no bearing on my point, here. In that thread you were arguing that the Torah had to have preceded the time of King Josiah. For the sake of argument, I am granting you that point, (whether or not I believe it). However, the story indicates that the Jewish people had forgotten the Torah. If they forgot it, then you no longer have a “continuous” memory of any event recorded in it. If they did not “forget” it, then your scripture is in blatant error, calling into question anything else it claims. 1. The myths that you mention, do they claim the number of ancestor-witnesses, and, if so, do they number in the millions? Furthermore, were the millions of people who were believed to have see the mythological event commemorating the event from the time of the event? Indeed, the fact that you mention those myths without mentioning the details of that myth show me that you hate, or are afraid of, the truth. 2. Where does the story say that they forgot about the Torah? Even if a verse says that they forgot about the Torah – how does that imply in any which way that they forgot about their miraculous history? (These points are in addition to the points that I made in the previous thread which you failed to respond to fully) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/79 "2011-01-09T01:48:55Z")
> [@abele\_derer](#): > > 1. The myths that you mention, do they claim the number of ancestor-witnesses, and, if so, do they number in the millions? Furthermore, were the millions of people who were believed to have see the mythological event commemorating the event from the time of the event? > Indeed, the fact that you mention those myths without mentioning the details of that myth show me that you hate, or are afraid of, the truth. So, you are going to set up a series of arbitrary rules that carefully exclude every group except your pet belief? Sorry, that is special pleading and I will dismiss that as more nonsense. Since youj appear to be the only one who actually believes the drek you are pushing, it is up to you to provide something persuasive in your arguments. So far, you have provided nothing that approaches such persuasion. “Hate” or “afraid of” the “truth”? Nah. You are simply displaying the sort of behavior that I have come to recognize among every Conspiracy Theorist or True Believer in nonsense. Nothing I believe would be harmed, in any way, if the Exodus story with the Sinai experience turned out to have a significant factual component. I accepted it as having a basis of fact for decades before I encountered enough evidence to persuade me that there was too little evidence. If such evidence was provided, then I would simply move my views back to that side of the equation without changing any of my overall views or beliefs. Your (Kurzari’s?) odd attempts to spin gold from straw don’t even come close. > [@abele\_derer](#): > > 1. Where does the story say that they forgot about the Torah? Even if a verse says that they forgot about the Torah – how does that imply in any which way that they forgot about their miraculous history? (These points are in addition to the points that I made in the previous thread which you failed to respond to fully) > [@](#): > > 2 Kings 22 > [sup]1[/sup] Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one years. His mother’s name was Jedidah daughter of Adaiah; she was from Bozkath. [sup]2[/sup] He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and followed completely the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. > [sup]3[/sup] In the eighteenth year of his reign, King Josiah sent the secretary, Shaphan son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, to the temple of the LORD. He said: [sup]4[/sup] “Go up to Hilkiah the high priest and have him get ready the money that has been brought into the temple of the LORD, which the doorkeepers have collected from the people. [sup]5[/sup] Have them entrust it to the men appointed to supervise the work on the temple. And have these men pay the workers who repair the temple of the LORD— [sup]6[/sup] the carpenters, the builders and the masons. Also have them purchase timber and dressed stone to repair the temple. [sup]7[/sup] But they need not account for the money entrusted to them, because they are honest in their dealings.” > > [sup]8[/sup] Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. [sup]9[/sup] Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” [sup]10[/sup] Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king. > > [sup]11[/sup] When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. [sup]12[/sup] He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Akbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: [sup]13[/sup] “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.” > . . . > 2 Kings 23 > [sup]1[/sup] Then the king called together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. [sup]2[/sup] He went up to the temple of the LORD with the people of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the priests and the prophets—all the people from the least to the greatest. He read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant, which had been found in the temple of the LORD. [sup]3[/sup] The king stood by the pillar and renewed the covenant in the presence of the LORD—to follow the LORD and keep his commands, statutes and decrees with all his heart and all his soul, thus confirming the words of the covenant written in this book. Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant. > . . . > [sup]21[/sup] The king gave this order to all the people: “Celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant.” [sup]22[/sup] Neither in the days of the judges who led Israel nor in the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah had any such Passover been observed. [sup]23[/sup] But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, this Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem. Now, any plain reading of that text will indicate that neither Josiah nor his people had knowledge of the Law at the time that Josiah ordered his reforms. I am sure that you will supply some weird twist of logic or careful nitpick of language that will claim that the knowledge was there, but that they were just ignoring it, but that is not how the passage actually reads. On the oother hand, there is nothing in that passage that indicates that the people actually recalled hearing the story rom their ancestors. You simply are forced to be;ieve that in order to cling to your silly special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![abele\_derer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@abele\_derer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abele_derer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643/80 "2011-01-09T02:01:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, you are going to set up a series of arbitrary rules that carefully exclude every group except your pet belief? Sorry, that is special pleading and I will dismiss that as more nonsense. Since youj appear to be the only one who actually believes the drek you are pushing, it is up to you to provide something persuasive in your arguments. So far, you have provided nothing that approaches such persuasion. “Hate” or “afraid of” the “truth”? Nah. You are simply displaying the sort of behavior that I have come to recognize among every Conspiracy Theorist or True Believer in nonsense. Nothing I believe would be harmed, in any way, if the Exodus story with the Sinai experience turned out to have a significant factual component. I accepted it as having a basis of fact for decades before I encountered enough evidence to persuade me that there was too little evidence. If such evidence was provided, then I would simply move my views back to that side of the equation without changing any of my overall views or beliefs. Your (Kurzari’s?) odd attempts to spin gold from straw don’t even come close. > > Now, any plain reading of that text will indicate that neither Josiah nor his people had knowledge of the Law at the time that Josiah ordered his reforms. I am sure that you will supply some weird twist of logic or careful nitpick of language that will claim that the knowledge was there, but that they were just ignoring it, but that is not how the passage actually reads. On the oother hand, there is nothing in that passage that indicates that the people actually recalled hearing the story rom their ancestors. You simply are forced to be;ieve that in order to cling to your silly special pleading. 1. No special pleading, as I’m sure you are aware. You can’t point to ONE national event - referring, for example, to the two people, Romulus and Remus, as a your example of a national event. Shame on you for trying to fool your unsuspecting audience, by not providing the specifics of the myths you provided. 2. Where does it say that he “ **forgot about the Torah**?” It merely means, AT MOST, that he never read the Torah. The reverse seems to be true, in fact. In verse 8, Hilkiah says “I found _ **the** _ book of the law,” which implies that everyone knew very well what the book was. Joshiah, since he grew up in a home infused with idolatry, was simply unaware of its contents. What was special about this Torah - as I mentioned before - was that it was written by Moses, and that it was found hidden in the Temple. It was hidden, because it was a special Torah. Furthermore, you still haven’t shown me how Joshia forgot about their miraculous history? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kuzari-round-two/566643.md?page=5)