# KY Tries Ed Run Around Establishment Clause **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005 "2009-08-28T06:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/21 "2009-08-28T15:27:35Z")
… hors d’ouevres and soft drinks, but please bring your own alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/22 "2009-08-28T15:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > One required that training materials include information that the General Assembly stressed a “dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth.” The other required a plaque to be placed at the entrance to the state’s Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort that said, in part, “the safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God.” Look, if you’re too cheap to hire security, just say so, don’t throw the responsibility onto someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/23 "2009-08-28T16:09:40Z")
This is an old saw among the loopier evangelical Christians. “Religion is evil! What you need is a personal relationship with Jesus.” Nice try, but according to SCOTUS precedent, as well as any sane definition regarding this subject, your “relationship” is a religion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/24 "2009-08-28T16:26:30Z")
God does not equal or necessitate religion. The existence of a God (singular) is simply a philosophical proposition of monotheism. Nothing more. This contrasts of polytheism, and strong atheism. They are all positions on “godness”. Monotheism, in and of itself, is not attached to any religion. In fact, you can have competing religions under that philosophy. You can even have someone hold to that philosophical position and not adhere to any religion whatsoever. Philosophical position 1: is there a god? Theism vs atheism. If Theism, then we can move on to… Philosophical position 2: Is there one god or many? Polytheism vs monotheism. If monotheism (for example), then Philosophical position 3: Who/what is this god? Defining of a _particular_ god. Only at this point do we start to get into “religion”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/25 "2009-08-28T16:35:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > God does not equal or necessitate religion. The existence of a God (singular) is simply a philosophical proposition of monotheism. Nothing more. This contrasts of polytheism, and strong atheism. They are all positions on “godness”. Monotheism, in and of itself, is not attached to any religion. In fact, you can have competing religions under that philosophy. You can even have someone hold to that philosophical position and not adhere to any religion whatsoever. > > Philosophical position 1: is there a god? Theism vs atheism. > > If Theism, then we can move on to… > Philosophical position 2: Is there one god or many? Polytheism vs monotheism. > > If monotheism (for example), then > Philosophical position 3: Who/what is this god? Defining of a _particular_ god. > > Only at this point do we start to get into “religion”. Most of this post is ridiculous. When Kentucky talks about “almighty God”, they mean one God, one particular God, and one religion. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/26 "2009-08-28T16:35:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Monotheism, in and of itself, is not attached to any religion. In fact, you can have competing religions under that philosophy. You can even have someone hold to that philosophical position and not adhere to any religion whatsoever. Monotheism, in and of itself, is certainly attached to a subset of religions. The phrase “we are dependent on Almighty God” constitutes an assumption on the part of the legislature of Kentucky that god is singular, and as such constitutes an establishment of a particular brand of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/27 "2009-08-28T17:13:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Monotheism, in and of itself, is certainly attached to a subset of religions. The phrase “we are dependent on Almighty God” constitutes an assumption on the part of the legislature of Kentucky that god is singular, and as such constitutes an establishment of a particular brand of faith. Yes, and while Jews and Muslims might agree with the proposition that “we are dependent on Almighty God”, adherents of some other major religions (e.g., Buddhism and Hinduism) would not agree with it. But I suspect that Buddhists and Hindus don’t have a lot of political clout in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/28 "2009-08-28T17:18:31Z")
None at all. Everyone knows Kentucky is dominated by the Parsees. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/29 "2009-08-28T17:25:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Only at this point do we start to get into “religion”. Wait, why at _this_ point? Why not require them to have 55 adherents first, or a holy book of at least fifty pages, or a building with two or more religious symbols on it? I mean, if you’re going to _arbitrarily_ assert that belief in a god or gods alone is not enough to constitute a religion, then you must have some clearly defined standard, right? Perhaps in that Big Book of Absolutely Objectively Correct Definitions of Everything, that I see by your elbow? ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/30 "2009-08-28T18:10:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I heard it was Shiva. Shiva tolerates lesser gods, such as J\*\*h and Allah, so it really doesn’t matter, however. Josh? > [@magellan01](#): > > God does not equal or necessitate religion. The existence of a God (singular) is simply a philosophical proposition of monotheism. Nothing more. This contrasts of polytheism, and strong atheism. They are all positions on “godness”. Monotheism, in and of itself, is not attached to any religion. In fact, you can have competing religions under that philosophy. You can even have someone hold to that philosophical position and not adhere to any religion whatsoever. Even if all of this were true, the plaque doesn’t say “blah blah blah almighty god blah blah” it says “blah blah blah almighty God blah blah.” The capitalization is what makes everything you wrote pointless.\* By invoking the almighty big-G-God, they picked one particular deity out of many and stuck it on their plaque. That deity was not Shiva, Allah, Josh or cow-eyed Athena. - Well, the capitalization would be moot if not for the capitolization, but that almost goes without saying. Almost. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/31 "2009-08-28T18:29:53Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Bacon (Catholicism) Bacon-snappers…finally we can get rid of that mackerel business. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/32 "2009-08-28T19:05:09Z")
Atheism is also a lone philosophical stance, not an organized set of beliefs and practices, but when we’re talking about the Establishment Clause, I’d say it’s included. It’s no more acceptable for Kentucky to have a plaque outside that says, “Given that there are no gods and materialism is clearly objective truth, we must stand ready to defend ourselves,”\* than it is to have one that says “Receive the seven sacraments of Catholicism or go to hell.” So making a paean to “Almighty God” is certainly right out as well. \*Regardless of the fact that I agree with this statement, and the fact that I howl when people in other contexts refer to atheism as a “belief system,” or Og forbid, a religion. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/33 "2009-08-28T19:33:52Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > than it is to have one that says “Receive the seven sacraments of Catholicism or go to hell.” Now, now, not everyone is expected to be ordained a priest. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/34 "2009-08-28T20:24:30Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Now, now, not everyone is expected to be ordained a priest. _Yet._ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/35 "2009-08-28T20:26:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > KY… what slippery bastards. Screw you for beating me to the punch. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/36 "2009-08-28T20:27:20Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I heard it was Shiva. Shiva tolerates lesser gods, such as J\*\*h and Allah, so it really doesn’t matter, however. Could indifference be considered intolerance? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/37 "2009-08-28T20:28:51Z")
Theism is no more a religion than atheism is. That being said, remove all the god talk from all government documents, it’s just pointless sentimental pandering anyway. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/38 "2009-08-28T20:35:34Z")
It looks like they took the 12 step program and crossed out sobriety and put in security. I’ve actually known many people who say things like “I don’t believe in religion, I just believe in following God”. To them, the existence of God is such a foregone conclusion, they don’t even realize it’s a matter of faith. It’s like saying the sky is blue, and the Atheists are just a handful wing-nuts who seem to think it’s orange. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/39 "2009-08-28T20:37:33Z")
If the state legislates that montheism must be accepted as the official theological model, then it’s also making a _de facto_ declaration that no other model is true. The state does not have a right to say that any religious view is false, or that any gods don’t exist. The KY law forces people to say that polytheism, animism and ancestor worship are false theological paradigms. That’s why the “God is not a religion” argument fails. Any state declaration that one reliogious belief is true is also a statement that others are false. If you pluralize the word “God,” and force people to say they can’t be protected without “the Almighty Gods,” the same contention that “gods aren’t a religion” would apply equally well. It’s a completely disingenuous argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005/40 "2009-08-28T20:42:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Theism is no more a religion than atheism is. > > That being said, remove all the god talk from all government documents, it’s just pointless sentimental pandering anyway. I don’t believe in people who are “just theists”. I literally don’t think it’s possible to believe in a god or gods without defining properties about it - you _have_ to, to distinguish it from other concepts like “curiousity” or “blue” or “cheese”. And once you’ve cooked up your system of beliefs about your god and/or gods, then poof! Religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ky-tries-ed-run-around-establishment-clause/508005.md?page=3)