# Kyle Rayner1 and his crap about cops **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036 "2005-09-04T10:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/181 "2005-09-08T04:34:54Z")
\*\* Monty\*\* - on a general basis - you do realize you’re shooting drunken fish in a barrel, right? (line shamelessly lifted from fashion report on Tara Reid). but - surely you don’t need proof that a misdemeanor netting a $100 fine (or whatever is the local fine) will have a significantly different impact on the poor vs the rich? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/182 "2005-09-08T05:10:07Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > …and punish Illinois Nazis… I hate those guys 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/183 "2005-09-08T05:12:57Z")
> [@wring](#): > > but - surely you don’t need proof that a misdemeanor netting a $100 fine (or whatever is the local fine) will have a significantly different impact on the poor vs the rich? The other bit is kind of the important one. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/184 "2005-09-08T05:18:31Z")
he asked for proof of both. I’m suggesting that part of it should be obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/185 "2005-09-08T05:33:32Z")
No love for my Nite owl reference? C’mon he’s fat and a (retired) vigilante! ::slinks away feeling sorry for himself:: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/186 "2005-09-08T06:56:04Z")
Well, yeah, that part’s obvious. Must’ve been a reflex action: Kyle says something =\> call for proof. After all, we wouldn’t want the guy to develop any bad habits, now would we? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/187 "2005-09-08T07:03:37Z")
ok. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/188 "2005-09-08T07:25:26Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > C’mon he’s fat and a (retired) vigilante! “Give me time! I’m working on it! I’m Middle-aged Man!” And I thought that routine was original. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/189 "2005-09-08T08:12:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Scumpup, > > Well, the trenchcoat costume has the risk of making the wearer, especially in the summer, look like a flasher on the prowl and thus putting him at risk of being the target of another vigilante. At least then the vigilantes can just beat each other up right? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/190 "2005-09-08T10:29:46Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > At least then the vigilantes can just beat each other up right? Only until they they realize that they are on the same side and team up to take down whatever The Joker. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/191 "2005-09-08T11:13:58Z")
> [@wring](#): > > \*\* Monty\*\* - on a general basis - you do realize you’re shooting drunken fish in a barrel, right? (line shamelessly lifted from fashion report on Tara Reid). > > but - surely you don’t need proof that a misdemeanor netting a $100 fine (or whatever is the local fine) will have a significantly different impact on the poor vs the rich? Then surely all offences which result in a fine hit the poor more than the rich? Unless your fines are based on some kind of sliding scale or percentage of income. His reference to “trumped up charges” make me think he wasn’t referring to fines though. It sounds like some kind of conspiracy to batter the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/192 "2005-09-08T12:06:53Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > Then surely all offences which result in a fine hit the poor more than the rich? The poor may also commit more of those offences, or at least be busted for them more often {God forbid that I should give **Kyle** even the sniff of a point, but he needs all the help he can get}. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/193 "2005-09-08T12:09:56Z")
> [@Dag Otto](#): > > I don’t think anyone is advocating\* two \* vigilantes. That’s just silly. New on Fox this fall - _Two Silly Vigilantes_. Watch as our zany avengers try to right wrongs while quarreling over their outfits, losing their weapons down sewer gratings and killing the wrong people! What a wild duet!! Starring John Lithgow and Will Smith. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/194 "2005-09-08T12:12:21Z")
**Kyle** , it’s been pointed out to you, with cites and actual examples, that the comic-book model of “justice by vigilante” is unworkable in real life. And yet you cling to the believe that somehow life would be so much better if law enforcement was left up to unregulated, unsupervised amateurs. Since the rational arguments of Dopers have had little effect, perhaps you might want to look at the problem from a different perspective. In 1973, director Ted Post made a documentary about modern vigilantism in the city of San Francisco, CA. You may find it interesting that the vigilantes Post investigated were actually city police officers who pretty much shared your feelings about the ineffectiveness of standard law enforcement. Post centered his documentary about the efforts of San Francisco Police Inspector Harry Callahan to stop the vigilantes (patrol officers working under the supervision of Lt. Neil Briggs.) Despite your prejudicial attitudes toward police officers, I believe you’ll find Post’s level-headed and fair assessment of the issue rather enlightening, and perhaps even a little surprising in its conclusions about the role of vigilante justice in modern American society. Check with your local video store for the film. Finding documentaries can be hit-or-miss sometimes, but Netflix is likely to have it available for queue. The director is Ted Post, and it was released by Malpaso in 1973. It’s called _Magnum Force_. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/195 "2005-09-08T12:21:56Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Only until they they realize that they are on the same side and team up to take down whatever The Joker. That should read “Only until they realize that they are on the same side and team up to take down The Joker.” Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/196 "2005-09-08T12:40:05Z")
Uvula Donor: Do you recall the movie [The Star Chamber](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/)? Kyle: How far through college do you expect “it’s all The Man’s Fault” to take you? ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/197 "2005-09-08T13:29:45Z")
> [@wring](#): > > \*\* Monty\*\* - on a general basis - you do realize you’re shooting drunken fish in a barrel, right? (line shamelessly lifted from fashion report on Tara Reid). And me! And **ME**! Damn plagiarist! And the world will be a better place without plagiarists! “Honey, where’s my damn spandex tights?” “At the cleaners, sweetie.” **Wring** , you live to post another day… ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/198 "2005-09-08T13:57:18Z")
Well, in the past vigilantes have met with success under some circumstances. Two groups of vigilantes, acting much like Kyle would like, were successful in keeping a relative level of peace in th neighborhoods they controlled and enforced the laws they thought should be enforced. Sadly, there was issues when other vigilante groups attempted to police the same neighborhood. But all in all, the Mafia and the Yakuza have been good at keeping lawlessness to a minimum, at least according to their rules. Is this what you’re looking for Kyle? ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/199 "2005-09-08T14:17:10Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > But all in all, the Mafia and the Yakuza have been good at keeping lawlessness to a minimum, at least according to their rules. Is this what you’re looking for Kyle? It might be. The Yakuza seem to have the [costume](http://www.darksungames.com/dsgallery/yakuza.jpg) part down. I guess a tattoo works, but a waiver of the cape requirement will be needed from the Vigilante Union. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036/200 "2005-09-08T14:28:07Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > At least then the vigilantes can just beat each other up right? Nah, that just leads to Götterdammerung, or so Mark Waid would expect you to believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyle-rayner1-and-his-crap-about-cops/320036.md?page=11)