# Kyrie eleison upon us **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [August 1, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547 "2017-08-01T03:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/1 "2017-08-01T03:26:40Z")
In case anyone is wondering why _Kyrie eleison_ is sometimes Englished as “Lord have mercy upon us”, blame Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury under Henry VII and Edward VI. He was one of the greatest prose writers in the history of the English language, but (as he, himself, knew), he was a vile poet, and actually believed that “Lord have mercy upon us” could be sung to the same music as _Kyrie eleison_ because they both have seven syllables. (Yes they do. If you think they don’t, you’re not pronouncing _Kyrie eleison_ correctly.) Suffice it to say that I don’t know a single musical setting in both Greek and English that has the syllables underlying the music in the same way in both languages. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/2 "2017-08-01T04:38:50Z")
Link to the article: [What does “Kyrie eleison” mean? (A Straight Dope Staff Report by SDStaff Songbird, Straight Dope Science Advisory Board)](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1506/what-does-kyrie-eleison-mean) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/3 "2017-08-01T06:09:16Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > […]and actually believed that “Lord have mercy upon us” could be sung to the same music as _Kyrie eleison_ because they both have seven syllables. (Yes they do. If you think they don’t, you’re not pronouncing _Kyrie eleison_ correctly.) For those wondering: Kyrie is pronounced key - re - ee - ay. [For example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WzbJQroGc). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/4 "2017-08-01T14:37:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > For those wondering: Kyrie is pronounced key - re - ee - ay. [For example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WzbJQroGc). Uh, no. Key-ree-ay ay-lay-ee-zohn. The first word has three, the second four. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/5 "2017-08-03T03:55:14Z")
How does that help with the second line in the chant (replace “Kyrie” with “Christe”)? I suppose you could drop the “up” in “upon”, but then you’ve set many of the syllables in the second half of the line to different notes in each line. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/6 "2017-08-04T04:33:37Z")
I don’t know offhand what he might have intended. As I say, he was a Michaelangelo of prose, but when it came to verse and music, he was utterly cloth-eared. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/7 "2017-08-04T06:50:19Z")
I’m not so sure about that. The [Koine Greek Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek#New_Testament_Greek) says that the ei diphthong started being lost as early as the fifth century BCE. And this invocation can’t predate the first century CE. The [actual vowel chart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology#Popular_pronunciation.2C_1st_century_BC_.E2.80.93_2nd_century_AD) suggests it actually has an “ee” sound. So the original pronunciation would be /ky ri e e li son/ or /ky ri e e li zon/. Or, in English respelling, kü-ree-eh eh-lee-son or -zon, with ü being that rounded ee sound. Of course, the songs were written in Latin, not Greek, and a Latin transliteration probably used Latin vowels, not Greek ones. But the Latin of the day, Classical Latin, appears to have [pronounced ei as a diphthong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Diphthongs). And, worse, two vowels in a row across words [were often elided](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Elision). That would mean 5 syllables: **kee** -rih-eh- **ley** -zon (/kiː rɪ ɛ lej zɔn/). That’s not to say that songs weren’t written with seven syllables. I’ve definitely been told that “Latin doesn’t have diphthongs.” But it does seem the phrase has either 5 or 6 syllables as originally pronounced, if said Wikipedia articles are accurate. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/8 "2017-08-04T16:09:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’m not so sure about that. The [Koine Greek Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek#New_Testament_Greek) says that the ei diphthong started being lost as early as the fifth century BCE. And this invocation can’t predate the first century CE. The [actual vowel chart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology#Popular_pronunciation.2C_1st_century_BC_.E2.80.93_2nd_century_AD) suggests it actually has an “ee” sound. > > So the original pronunciation would be /ky ri e e li son/ or /ky ri e e li zon/. Or, in English respelling, kü-ree-eh eh-lee-son or -zon, with ü being that rounded ee sound. > > Of course, the songs were written in Latin, not Greek, and a Latin transliteration probably used Latin vowels, not Greek ones. But the Latin of the day, Classical Latin, appears to have [pronounced ei as a diphthong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Diphthongs). And, worse, two vowels in a row across words [were often elided](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Elision). That would mean 5 syllables: **kee** -rih-eh- **ley** -zon (/kiː rɪ ɛ lej zɔn/). > > That’s not to say that songs weren’t written with seven syllables. I’ve definitely been told that “Latin doesn’t have diphthongs.” But it does seem the phrase has either 5 or 6 syllables as originally pronounced, if said Wikipedia articles are accurate. I am unaware of any liturgical music using the phrase that puts _kyrie eleison_ into six or five syllables. I’m not an expert, however, so perhaps someone can point to such an example from prior to Thomas Cranmer’s existence on Earth. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/9 "2017-08-05T06:27:30Z")
I’m traveling, and will be for over a week, so I’m in no condition to respond to this. However, I can definitely say that 20th–21st-century Anglican music uses seven syllables. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/10 "2017-08-05T11:38:01Z")
Bach’s B Minor Mass (1720s?) uses seven syllables. Padilla’s Missa (1710s?) seem to use six, by eliding between the two words. They both pronounce the two diphthongs with two syllables each. Hard to tell for sure because of the melismas, but that’s how I was taught to sing 'em. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/11 "2017-08-05T12:00:05Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Bach’s B Minor Mass (1720s?) uses seven syllables. The same first seven (guitar) notes in “Stairway to Heaven,” I might add. 😉 (Certain live versions, anyway…the studio version ascends on the first four-note phrase.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/12 "2017-08-05T14:36:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [For example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WzbJQroGc). Aw, I was hoping for a _Lord Of The Flies_ clip. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kyrie-eleison-upon-us/792547/13 "2017-08-06T02:31:59Z")
I always like this Mr Mister song: [Mr Mister - Kyrie Eleison - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=belrNpqqA2g)