# L, I and 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431 "2024-11-19T03:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/1 "2024-11-19T03:14:51Z")
Why do people who make these decisions not make them all the same on a keyboard? I took keyboarding in school. I do some flakey, my own invention QWERTY type plucking away. On my screen I see the small L, the I and the one, as the same. Don’t even have the flag on the one. Yeah, so I don’t always get my way. I would like to. Who is the boss of these things? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/2 "2024-11-19T03:24:00Z")
Blame the font designer, who decided to draw those glyphs in an identical manner, as well as the person responsible for choosing that particular font. Let’s see now: # 1Il On my system, the “1” at least is distinct, but “I” [capital i] and “l” [lower-case L] are absolutely indistinguishable. ---
**Author:** ![DaveUnknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@DaveUnknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveUnknown)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/3 "2024-11-19T03:29:31Z")
This has been brought up here from time to time (including myself a couple years ago!) and the answers included: The default internet font _is_ serif; Change your settings ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/4 "2024-11-19T03:32:08Z")
I still want lower case f to be a S. I just can’t get no satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/5 "2024-11-19T03:32:50Z")
Go here: > [@I wish this site used serif fonts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wish-this-site-used-serif-fonts/985965): > > I keep reading about some guy named Al. He seems to be in a lot of threads. More recently, there’s a thread with two guys named Al having a fight, in a site owned by a third guy named Al. I’m just surprised Al Gore isn’t involved yet. [AI Trump vs AI Biden in AI-Generated Debate](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ai-trump-vs-ai-biden-in-ai-generated-debate/985914) More knowledgeable computer folks than me were very kind, walking me through it, to install on my desktop. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/6 "2024-11-19T03:34:03Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Blame the font designer… Yeah. It’s fonts I think. Some are better than others. ETA: I wonder if some of these fonts were about ease of printing when they had to manually typeset something to print. (just guessing…I do now know) ETA2: @Monty makes a good point just below about a typewriter. Less complication if you can make one key do double-duty. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/7 "2024-11-19T03:36:26Z")
When I first learned to type on a manual typewriter, the thing actually did not have numeral 1. I had to type the lower-case l for that. I hated that and I’m with the OP on this issue today. I really don’t know how old that manual typewriter was. My mother got it used when she was in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/8 "2024-11-19T03:41:08Z")
When I look for non-display characters in Word, manual line breaks are ^l. I choose ‘manual line breaks’ from the Special menu. I only found out recently that they’re ^l and not ^|. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/9 "2024-11-19T03:53:25Z")
I understand the concern about what I see, on screen, since I mentioned it. But its more about space saving on the keyboard and how my typing skills work. Why can’t it be simpler? If typing, say, a B required me to pat my head at the same time I hunted and pecked a B, I suppose I’d get used to it. Just kinda silly to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/10 "2024-11-19T03:57:56Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Why can’t it be simpler? In printing saving space was a thing. Column inches was a real measurement. There was only so much space on a page so being able to squeeze more in was a virtue. These days, since elctrons are almost free, you can use any font you want and skip the AP Style Guide. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/11 "2024-11-19T11:50:15Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I understand the concern about what I see, on screen, since I mentioned it. > > But its more about space saving on the keyboard and how my typing skills work. > > Why can’t it be simpler? > > If typing, say, a B required me to pat my head at the same time I hunted and pecked a B, I suppose I’d get used to it. > Just kinda silly to do so. Are you seriously suggesting that your keyboard should have one button for one, ell, and eye, which are really all the same thing then somehow the recipient of your typing (human or computer) would have to figure out which you meant? That’s beyond nutty. Now what would be smart is if all font designs and designers were required to ensure all characters are obviously visually distinct so nobody could get confused about which character they’re looking at. That would be a definite improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/12 "2024-11-19T11:50:29Z")
I thought this thread was going to be about how some people, when printing something by hand, write in all capital letters _except_ they write the letter L in lower case so that it looks like an I, which is utterly bizarre and infuriating and makes no f’ing sense and yet it’s surprisingly common. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/13 "2024-11-19T13:06:24Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > But its more about space saving on the keyboard and how my typing skills work. You would still need an i, L and ! so I don’t see how it would save any space to combine I, l and 1 (which all have distinct characters on my screen). Also, you would have 24 letters where the capital/small versions are on one key and two letters (and a number) where you need a distinct key to access them making typing _more_ complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/14 "2024-11-19T15:22:11Z")
I think the pipe character “|” should get in on the act here. I used to do a lot with the FORTH computer language, which many regarded as hard to read. In the spirit of esoteric language tinkering, I started playing with making programs even harder to read. FORTH lets you use any string of non-whitespace characters you want to name what amount to subroutines or variables. For example you can define a variable named “5” and set its value to be 3. There actually are obscure situations where this is useful in real programs. But what I was doing was creating strings out of the pipe character, the numeral for one, the uppercase i and the lowercase L, for example I1||lIl|1, to name subroutines or variables. Thinking back, I wonder (and wistfully so) how I had the time for this nonsense… ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/15 "2024-11-19T15:33:38Z")
What peeves my pets is terminal emulators and coding apps that use some form of Courier font by default, instead of a proper Console font. I want to code, not typewrite. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/16 "2024-11-19T15:47:57Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > But what I was doing was creating strings out of the pipe character, the numeral for one, the uppercase i and the lowercase L, for example I1||lIl|1, to name subroutines or variables. So kinda like this guy: > **[License Plate](https://xkcd.com/1105/)** > > The next day: 'What? Six bank robberies!? But I just vandalized the library!' 'Nice try. They saw your plate with all the 1's and I's.' 'That's impossible! I've been with my car the whole ti-- ... wait. Ok, wow, that was clever of her.' ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/17 "2024-11-19T15:49:47Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I still want lower case f to be a S. > > I just can’t get no satisfaction. I’m sorry, but you really missed an opportunity here: 'Cause ya could have typed: “I can’t get no fatiffaction”. ( Can this forum display a John Hancock-y font? ) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/18 "2024-11-19T15:54:18Z")
The range of fonts available depends on what’s on the user’s browser. Discourse has (almost) nothing to do with it. You the poster can ask for your post to be displayed in some weird esoteric font that only you and two other people on Earth have installed. You three will see what you intended. Everybody else will see something else. Depending entirely on details unique to their computer. So-called “font fallback” is a complicated topic. Which is a lot of why marketing emails and websites are often NOT made of words and letters, but rather of images of words and letters. That way the images come out exactly as the marketers wanted with no dependency on which fonts (or browsers) are installed on each viewer’s computer. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/19 "2024-11-19T16:00:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that your keyboard should have one button for one, ell, and eye, which are really all the same thing then somehow the recipient of your typing (human or computer) would have to figure out which you meant? That’s kind of how some old typewriters worked - to economise on the number of mechanical keys, there were no numbers 1 or 0 - users were expected to use lowercase L and uppercase O respectively. Also on some machines there might have been other things missing such as exclamation mark - and users would have to type a full stop(period), then go back a space and type an apostrophe. Of course nobody was ever trying to interpret the output of those things as a series of indexed character values like computers have to; also in those days, the only way in which your typed page would be read was by the human eye, from the paper, whereas now, the text you enter in a computer may be displayed in a different font from the one you use, or may be read aloud by a screen reader, or interpreted into another language by a machine - so it matters much, much more now, for things like that, and for searches, if you write _lO Green Bottles_ instead of _10 Green Bottles_ - ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431/20 "2024-11-19T16:09:56Z")
Well yes. That’s exactly how it was. I too learned to type that way on a 1950s manual typewriter. But I was incredulous that our OP was claiming that since she learned that too way back when, we should now remove the 1 button from computer keyboards and go back to the old way. And somehow eliminate the different L & I keys too. Despite her having used computer keyboards for ~30 years minimum she now wants to jump back to 50-60 years ago? WTF? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/l-i-and-1/1010431.md?page=2)