# Lacing up my Zyklons-offensive or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825 "2002-09-03T16:45:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/61 "2002-09-06T23:52:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BlackKnight \* > \*\* > > The gas used by the Nazis, from what I understand, was Zyklon B. The Umbro product was not called Zyklon B. Zyklon means cyclone in German. It means that in German whether it is said in Germany or not. If someone is ignorant of what it means, that is their failing and they do not have the right to be upset over a word they don’t understand. > > If Zyklon meant “Death to Jews” in German, then it would be offensive inside and outside of the German-speaking world. It means “cyclone”, and is inoffensive inside and outside the German-speaking world., unless the concept of a meteorological event is offensive. \*\* I agree 100% It reminds me of when a mayoral aide used the word ‘niggardly’ and everybody freaked out and called him a racist. Aside of that, these shoe companies should wise up. Didn’t Reebok name a womans shoe ‘Incubis’ a few years back? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/62 "2002-09-07T02:16:39Z")
**BlackKnight** : > [@](#): > > The product’s name was “Zyklon”, not “Zyklon B”. “Zyklon” does not mean “Zyklon B”. A totally meaningless nitpick, a distinction without a difference. I hope you aren’t _really_ trying to say that none of the associations that “Zyklon B” carries would apply to “Zyklon” without the ‘B’. > [@](#): > > If Zyklon meant “Death to Jews” in German, then it would be offensive inside and outside of the German-speaking world. Agreed. > [@](#): > > It means “cyclone”, **Inside** the German-speaking world. **Outside** that world, where the connection with meteorology doesn’t hold, it effectively means, “Death to Jews,” because it was the agent by which death was dealt to millions of us\*. > [@](#): > > and is inoffensive inside and outside the German-speaking world. For the reasons given above, I say you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > unless the concept of a meteorological event is offensive. Once again, ‘Zyklon’ isn’t a meteorological event in English-speaking countries, nor in any non-Germanic languages. **Phoenix** : you’ll have to state your point. “untill I thought of mustard” is too little to rebut. - [sub]I say “us” because although I am a Christian by both birth and choice, my father is a full-blooded Jew, and I’m sure that would have sufficed, had I been born fifteen years sooner, and in Europe.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/63 "2002-09-07T02:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > **For the reasons given above, I say you’re wrong. Once again, ‘Zyklon’ isn’t a meteorological event in English-speaking countries, nor in any non-Germanic languages.** Of course not. Zyklon isn’t even IN english. However, to those of us who actually know what it is, it’s both. > [@](#): > > **Phoenix: you’ll have to state your point. “untill I thought of mustard” is too little to rebut.** Mustard gas caused untold suffering in the previous world war, a new weapon that was one of the most horrific implements of the time. _looks in fridge_ Hey, look at what we have here… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/64 "2002-09-07T11:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > Of course not. Zyklon isn’t even IN english. That’s pretty damned silly. It isn’t _originally_ an English word, sure. But the language changes. The demonstrated fact that a hell of a lot more people know what “Zyklon B” is, than speak enough German to have encountered the word “zyklon” as a cognate of “cyclone”, shows that it is indeed part of our language. And its meaning, _in English_, is “Death to Jews.” > [@](#): > > However, to those of us who actually know what it is, it’s both. Except it still has no association with tornadoes in English, and that’s what we’re talking about. (As well as other languages than German.) Just gassing large numbers of Jews to death. > [@](#): > > Mustard gas caused untold suffering in the previous world war, a new weapon that was one of the most horrific implements of the time. In what way does this rebut my point? An essential component of my argument is that Zyklon has _at most negligible prior association_ with anything at all in English. Hence its _sole_ association, in this language, is with the Nazi gas chambers. Mustard is clearly not analogous. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/65 "2002-09-07T12:46:01Z")
There one of the most poignent associations of the holocaust with shoes that remains today, and it is one of the starkest reminders that humanises and personalises the holocaust. Go to Auschwitz and look around the museums, one of the things that is most likely to remain with you is the sight of a room full of shoes from the victims.(another is a roomful of human hair) This really brings home the horror of what went on, shoes are such a personal item of clothing, not many people would wear secondhand shoes. The thing is, of course, that the instrument of death was Zyclon B, and the folks wearing those same shoes in the holocaust museum at Auschwitz were murdered by it. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/66 "2002-09-08T22:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*An essential component of my argument is that Zyklon has _at most negligible prior association_ with anything at all in English. > > Hence its _sole_ association, in this language, is with the Nazi gas chambers. > > Mustard is clearly not analogous. \*\* So if it were a german product, it’d be just fine? Since zyclon meant cyclone long before it was used as the name of a gas, just as with mustart? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/67 "2002-09-09T12:44:36Z")
The issue is not where the product is made, but where it’s sold. There may well be a case to be made for saying that it’s OK to market the product under the name “Zyklon” in Germany, where this is a common word meaning “cyclone”, and this strong association masks other associations. But that’s not the case outside the German-speaking world. Basically, when I hear “mustard” I don’t think of mustard gas. When I hear “Zyklon” I think of gas chambers. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/68 "2002-09-09T21:40:34Z")
Jesus, are they remaking _The Admirable Crichton again?!_ That James barrie, ya just can’t keep him down. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/69 "2002-09-09T21:43:23Z")
Jesus H. Christ—I submitted that reply to, obviously, another thread entirely. How the _hell_ did it wind up _here?_ Umm, please delete? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/70 "2002-09-09T22:58:03Z")
My 2 cents, starting from the top: - Was naming this shoe “Zyklon” stupid? Maybe. If the connotation of “Nazi death gas” is widely known, then it was dumb. I didn’t know that’s what “Zyklon” meant, and I can’t speak to the claim of “millions” of people instantly think of gassing Jews when they hear the word, but I suppose it’s possible, though I would guess that the vast majority of Americans, at least don’t make that association immediately. To most, it would be a vaguely cool-sounding word. So whoever came up with the name “Zyklon” should probably adopt the habit of dropping future product names into Google to see what pops up. However, since it seems they cam up with word completely at random, they may have figured that the odds of assembling letters at random and coming up with something highly offensive was pretty small. You live, you learn. - Is the degree of outrage it generated justifiable? Not really. They harmed nobody, and it was an innocent mistake. I would think the level-headed approach for anyone who saw the name “Zyklon” who made a negative association would be to issue a polite letter to Umbro saying, “Hey, did you know that you named your shoe after a poision used to kill a whole lotta people? Might wanna rethink that.” I think describing it as in “insult” is preposterous. More accuratley, it’s an “innocent blunder”. - Should Umbro have changed it? Well, it’s up to them. I would have, for purely economical reasons. The last thing you want is a bunch of folks demonstrating outside your headquarters calling you Nazi-sympathizers. - Is this comparable to putting a swastika on your product? Not really. The swastika is universally recognized, the word “Zyklon” much less so. Argue all you want about whether or not it _should_ be universally recognized, the fact is, in the US at least, it’s not. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/71 "2002-09-10T05:25:42Z")
Yeah, that’s about how I was looking at it too, Jeff. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/72 "2002-09-10T11:18:49Z")
Just a small correction. I don’t think umbro made up the name “Zyklon” by an amazing coincidence. I think they chose it knowing that it meant “cyclone” in German, and hoping that ithe sound of it would at least suggest “cyclone” to an anglophone ear, a cyclone being the kind of powerful and energetic thing that they like to have their boots associated with. Although Umbro is a British company they give a lot of their soccer boots names taken from other European languages - Risponsa, Velocita, Forza, Speciali, Kontakt. Zyklon is very much in that tradition. I would have thought it was routine that all product names (even if made up) should be checked for unintended but unfortunate associations before signficant sums are investing in branding goods with them. Obviously that wasn’t done here, so somebody slipped up badly. I don’t think Umbro intended to give offence. I do think they have been careless. I do think the name is highly, but unintentionally offensive. I don’t think outrage would be called for unless Umbro refused to withdraw the name. But in fact they withdrew it readily when the problem was pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/73 "2002-09-10T12:34:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Okay, BlackKnight, let’s say that a rope company in a non-English speaking country randomly decided to name their next line of rope as the “NiggerLyncher.” \*\* Ooooh! Perfect! (you’ll see why in a minute). “Lynch” is an Irish surname (it is where Lynching came from). Now, would it be ok for Peter Lynch to complain if there was a product called “the Lyncher”? Zyclon means cyclone. It is unfortunate that it was also the name of a pesticide used to kill people in Concentration Camps. I can understand how people could be offended by the use of the name “Zyclon”, but are Umbro trading on the name “Zyclon” to invoke imagery of concentration camps? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825/74 "2002-09-10T12:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*. . . but are Umbro trading on the name “Zyclon” to invoke imagery of concentration camps? \*\* No, not deliberately. But evoking this imagery upsets people even if it is entirely unintended, so people are perfectly reasonable in asking them to stop using the name. (And probably also reasonable in criticising Umbro for not checking the name for possible unfortunate connotations before using it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lacing-up-my-zyklons-offensive-or-not/126825.md?page=3)