(Lack of a) LA - Vegas Train

Factual Questions
41

Let’s say one Friday afternoon I decide to head off to Vegas. Well, compare my hypothetical trip from my home in Burbank:

Airplane-

  1. Make reservation. That is if you can get one a this late date.
  2. 40 minute drive to airport, (hope it’s not LAX :eek: ) park for $10 a day in one of the peripheral garages, take the shuttle bus to the terminal. (at least another 30 minutes down the drain)
  3. Check in (as long as half an hour)
  4. Security line (as much as an hour, but it doesn’t matter, you have to arrive early anyway)
  5. Get treated like dirt by the TSA (unless you are a young arab dude)
  6. Shoehorn yourself into a smelly coach seat and fly to Vegas. If you are lucky they might be able to get one or two drinks out to you during the flight.
  7. Trudge miles through McCarren (another 30 minutes before you will finally-)
  8. Find a cab or a shuttle bus, ride to hotel (maybe 20 minutes to the strip)
  9. Arrive exhausted, NOT ready to party.

Train-

  1. 10 minute drive to North Hollywood Metro station, or Glendale Amtrak station, park your own car for free, 1 minute walk to platform, wait a few minutes, get on train.
  2. Subway/Amtrak to Union Station (15 minutes)
  3. Take train to Vegas, relax in Cafe car with a few drinks and maybe a snack. (3 1/2 hours, which will seem much shorter because of all the cool people on the train, the nice scenery out the window, etc.)
  4. Train arrives in downtown LV.
  5. Cab to hotel. (10 minutes to the strip)
  6. You are not exhausted, in fact you started partying on the train with everyone else

So let’s do the comparo-

Time- equivalent

Cash- train is probably cheaper when you factor in parking, longer distance to airport, longer cab ride at other end.

Priceless- Not having some TSA punk with a GED treat you like you are a terrorist and paw through your stuff.

Plus the Vegas train was always a huge PARTY TRAIN. It becomes part of the fun, not the hassle.

No competition, IMHO.

42

And I really want to emphasize, while the time may be a little shorter or a little longer for one or the other, notice what you are doing during that time. Mr. Airplane is standing in line at check in while I am already chilling with a beer on the train. Mr. Airplane is in line at security and getting a flashlight up the butt while I am having a nice snack on the train. Mr. Airplane is trudging to the gate, while I am reading a magazine on the train Mr. Airplane is trying to find space in the overhead for his carry-on and trying to wedge himself into the middle seat, while I am relaxing in a big wide train seat with lot’s of leg and elbow room. Mr. Airplane is next to Mrs. Fat With Body Odor and in front of Lil’ Screaming Baby, and there ain’t nothing he can do about it because the flight is jammed. I can change my seat, even my car, at will (Amtrak even has “quiet cars”), or just go to the cafe car. Everyone at the airport and on the plane is like “Grrr”, because air travel is just like that. Everyone on the train is like “Hey what’s up, how ya doing” and is already playing poker for m&m’s in the cafe car, because trains are just* like *that.

I won’t get into the fact that rail is subsidized by the feds. Go check out what your air ticket would be like without all the government moohlah that pays for the airports. I won’t get into service quality either, because everyone knows that both planes and trains are sometimes late and sometimes crappy. Still, all told, there is nothing llike a train. Especially for short distances like between LA and Vegas. One might as well argue that there is no reason to have a train between NYC and DC. :rolleyes:

43

Last one, really, I’ve got stuff to do.

The return trip clinches it. You are completely fried and burned out from your Vegas weekend (well, if you were doing it right :wink: ), and instead of schlepping schlepping schlepping, you can sleep the whole time.

QED.

44

I’ll just echo a lot of what Happy Wanderer said. At some point this thread was destined to be commented on by the railfans. Being a railfan can, in some cases, make one shortsighted, but generally we’re up on the industry and have a pretty good ability to compare and contrast without much bias.

The Desert Wind was a very good example, Happy, as it dovetails with the story of the Texas Eagle. For those that don’t know, there were 3 trains destined for cancellation in '97, the Desert Wind, Texas Eagle, and Pioneer. Of the 3, only the Texas Eagle made it, and only then through a serious grassroots campaign (which I proudly took part in, as the Eagle passes through, literally, my back yard) and a loan from the State of Texas. Cities like Marshall and Mineola (along with others) invested huge sums to restore their depots; Marshall’s is, without a doubt, the finest in East Texas, and maybe along the whole route. Mayors of cities along the route got involved, etc.

As was stated above, the trains themselves weren’t really the problem. Part of the plan to cancel the 3 trains was the need for Superliners; part of it was that, in the case of the Texas Eagle, tri-weekly service was really only a half-measure. For a long distance train to really be viable, it needs/has to be daily. Which we got, and ridership on the Eagle has grown pretty dramatically since '97. The other 2 trains were victims of Amtrak’s leadership at the time (correct me if I’m wrong, but this was during the Warrington years, no?) which, after Claytor, had no real railroaders until Gunn. When you have a lack of very vocal support at the local level, it was easy to kill those trains. Now you have a protect set of Superliners, and probably some money left over for the idiotic Acela project in the northeast.

Since then, we’ve even added the Ft. Worth to Oklahoma City “Heartland Flyer” with ex-Santa Fe hi-level coaches (and I think one Superliner), one P42 and one F40PH Cabbage. Fort Worth is actually a pretty busy rail hub, as both the northbound and southbound Texas Eagles meet there, along with the Flyer. I’m unsure about the TRE, but I think they plan to serve the station as well. Regardless, Amtrak itself would never have implemented the route, even though it does well. State funding (not as great as California or Washington, but still) and big local support are the key.

As Allan Sloan recently said in Newsweek, once we stop thinking of Amtrak as money-losing socialism and the airlines as noble capitalists, perhaps we’ll be able to use the example of the Pacific Surfliner, Sounder, etc in other places.

Now, the problem (as I see it) to getting passenger service from LA to Vegas, is one of capacity. The freight railroads by themselves are running into capacity issues, particularly coming out of major ports, and intermodal traffic is expected to increase 200% over the next decade (as per Trains mag). Realistically, there isn’t room enough for the freight trains and the Amtrak trains we have now to approach a real efficency, hence the huge delays on the Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, heck, even the Coast Starlight. One can argue that the freight railroads aren’t doing Amtrak any favors (and they’re not) but there genuinely is a concern about how much further the market can grow without investing huge capital into infrastructure. BNSF and UP are both working on pretty major double-tracking projects, but is it too little, too late? Cajon is busy, and will get busier without an added passenger train. Would that train still be worthwhile if you arrived in Vegas several hours behind schedule, and got home in the same shape? I don’t know, but it’s a consideration.

Bleh…I can’t believe I’ve written this much. I’ll go now!

45

You’re right. I probably chose the wrong word in a way, but I don’t really think expensive tilt technology is the answer for LA - LV if it is only going to be used for a small percentage of the route. Tilt cares about curves not grades. From what I understand, the route is straight and flat mostly, and then hilly and twisty simultaneously. So the trains won’t be going that fast anyway. Tilt works best if you have a long, twisty route that is not necessarily mountainous.

From an Australian railfan perspective, what I glean from my US counterparts is that the American experience is very, very similar to our own - a big, car-dependent country with 19th century rail corridors and crappy track. The XPT, a 1970s Australian train (based on the British HST) can travel at about 170kph comfortably on the flat (Wassat? 105mph?). That’s fine, but what has killed those potential speeds is the condition of the track. Not the curves so much (although they are dreadful too on many of our main lines).

I guess what I’m saying essentially is that if you’re only getting an extra 10mph out of the speed boards, you might find that low quality track knocks your coffee over before a tight curve will slide it off the side of the table.

The tilt tech is great, but this here railfan would prefer some decent track. Heavy rails, good ballasting, continuous weld, proper cant, etc. Well, we can dream, eh?

46

Most people are going to have to pay parking, as LA light rail is laughably scarce to most of the city; gotta drive to the station. And where is that station? Union Station? Oops, no, that’s unlikely, Amtrack says it lacks capacity due to increased freight traffic… Hooray, here comes the MagLev… in Anaheim!! That pretty much knocks your convenience factor into a cocked hat, donit? And good luck getting more than one or two departures per day on the Vegas train. There goes your spontaneous, spur of the moment trip; guess there is no choice but to drive.

47

They could do it with one trainset, fer crying out loud. The operational profile would be very similar to a San Diegan. I am looking at old schedules and the Desert Wind made it in 6 hours and change. But it went through Fullerton and San Bernadino. Amtrak could run a limited stopping only in Pomona, Cucamonga, Victorville and Barstow, a much more direct route, and using Talgo could shave off even more. Say you could cut it down to 4 hours.

Proposed Schedule:

**The Rolling Dice **(Twice Daily)-

8:00 AM Depart Los Angeles (for the early birds/turn around types)

12:00 PM Arrive Vegas

12:30 PM Depart Vegas (enough time after hotel check-out to get to the station)

4:30 PM Arrive Los Angeles (you are very close to home!)

Train Set to LA maintenance yard for cleaning

7:00 PM Depart Los Angeles (enough time to get out of work, get ready, and get to Union Station)

11:00 PM Arrive Vegas (not too late to do some partying, especially if you grabbed a nap on the train :wink: )

11:30 PM Depart Vegas (for those doing the turn-around)

3:30 AM Arrive Los Angles

Train Set to LA maintenance yard for cleaning/minor maintenance

rinse/repeat

As to what Blake was saying, yeah Cajon is a jumping place alright, I used to live in Wrightwood so I am VERY familiar with the operations there, but they keep it moving most of the time. They also have large stretches of time when there ain’t nothing going on. I don’t think it is as big a choke point as they make it out to be, or even some other spots in So-Cal. I was on the Desert Wind one time and about 30 minutes out of Vegas the train comes to a halt and the power goes off in the coaches. In the middle of summer. :eek: It was getting pretty warm, but UP was along pretty quick to move that piece of garbage out of the way. They had business to take care of :wink: They may really need a fourth track through Cajon, to expand service significantly but it is not at capacity. They could do it at some price, I guess.

**Fear Itself-**Dammit, Uncle Sam did these guys a big favor taking the passenger service off their hands and they promised to carry the trains in return, and they need to be held to account.

The freight railroads are doing great business these days and I am tired of them whining about their lack of infrastructure. Start laying some track again. The bad old days of the teamsters and the ICC being in bed with each other are over now, and you are free to compete. Go forth and do so, because there really is a lot of truck traffic that belongs on rail these days. Just don’t forget to dance with who brung ya!

As far as LA transit is concerned, we have come a long way in just 20 years, and there is talk of extending the Gold Line to Claremont, then San Bernadino, the Red Line to the Beach, and they are already constructing the Expo line which will certainly reach Santa Monica someday. Are you seriously saying that you would rather fight traffic from the Valley to get to Union Station when you could jump on the Red Line? Are you aware that there is ample parking, and it isn’t even multi level, so on the same properties they could easily expand capacity dramatically? An LA/Vegas train has to be looked at also in the context of the FACT that LA is about to further expand all that infrastructure. How do I know? Villaraigosa is making it a priority and the feds have promised to help. They held a press conference to say so a week or two ago. They held it at the Wilshire/Western Red Line station where the beach extension would start. The symbolism couldn’t have been more clear. LA is getting it’s subway to the beach in a few years. We’ll wangle the rest.

TheLoadedDog- I believe Talgo is pretty good in the hills as well. There is power on each end. It really is kind of a sports car of a train. I was lucky enough to ride it north of Seattle and it was awesome.

One of the consolations of a likely return to democratic rule in this country is there will be no more of this asinine talk of shutting down Amtrak and maybe they can even get some needed capital to have adequate equipment. There will be funds for light rail and subway construction. Who knows, maybe someday they will restore the Desert Wind. Supplemented on the increasingly dense Vegas-LA corridor with The Rolling Dice Talgo of course. :slight_smile:

And so the pendulum swings…

48

Just out of curiousity, what’s idiotic about the Acela? I’ve taken it a couple times; it’s far from perfect, but they got some things right.

If you’re gonna stop in Cucamonga, you have to go to Anaheim and Azusa, too.

49

You never know…Desert Wind and Pioneer were cut during the Clinton administration (granted, a republican congress.) I’m not sure it’s really a partisan issue; McCain is anti-Amtrak, but Kay Bailey’s always done us good. I thought Mineta’s departure was a good sign, for sure. The Bush administration’s shitcanning of Gunn was terribly shortsighted, but I’ve a feeling that he was doing too good a job. He had his faults, but he got Superliners repaired, the NE Corridor infrastructure repair rolling, and even managed to refurbish the Empire Builder’s trainsets.

Robot Arm, it’s not that I think the Acela service is idiotic, it’s just that it was a huge investment that, as mentioned earlier, didn’t really improve on the Metroliners that much. Amtrak’s leadership invested in shiny new trains that don’t really get to take advantage of their full potential, while the corridor’s catenary, track, bridges, interlockers, etc. continued to go to hell. A lot of that stuff, even within the past few years, was original to the Pennsy, I believe. I think Bombardier wanted to make a heap of cash, and Amtrak was hoping against hope that these new trains would push NE Corridor revenues to a point that, with minimal book-cooking, would show “profit” to Congress. Whether they intended to use that as leverage to keep the long distance trains, I don’t know, but I doubt it. While the Acelas/HHP-8s were coming online, lots of Amtrak equipment was (and is) in desperate need of overhaul. I’m mostly familiar with the Superliner cars, which were, as a whole, last overhauled in '95 and have travelled a LOT of miles since. The Superliner II order of the '90’s is getting a little ratty now, and I doubt Amfleet is in better shape. The Viewliner cars, I hear, are starting to show their age, and they’re not that old.

Essentially, Acela was sort of like the SD90MAC; too much frill, too little practicality. For far less money Amtrak could have had some dual mode P42’s with pantographs (rated at 103 MPH) and either new or refurbished single level cars. The AEM7 locomotives might have even been able to do the job; I’m not familiar enough with it to comment. The Acela sets have had some teething problems with their bolsters that would have likely been avoided…the list goes on.

As far as service, I’m sure they’re nice, but it seems to me like grandma driving an Aston Martin.

50

Any Amtrak train would need dedicated tracks. UP treats Amtrak like scum, deliberately delaying the Coast Starlight Express, so that it is often hours late.

51

Realized that I didn’t know the answer to a related question, so I checked and am posting the answer, on the off chance that anyone’s interested.

The current train service from LA to LV works as follows:

Los Angeles, Southwest Chief, to Kingman, AZ, departs 6:45 p.m., arrive 1:56 a.m. (!)

Bus Service from Kingman, AZ through Laughlin to McCarran Airport, another 2-1/2 hours.

Cost looks to be less than $100 each way. Call Amtrak for reservations; if you try to use the Amtrak website it figures that you’d want to take the direct Amtrak bus service (under contract to Greyhound - argh! - it says in one place) from LA to LV.

On the other hand, looking at the train schedule… probably skip it…