# Lack of affirmative consent as rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884 "2009-08-18T20:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/61 "2009-08-20T19:41:09Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > As a factual matter, of course you can privately withdraw consent. Whether it’s meaningful to do so in a legal sense isn’t the point of my example. I take it that you think the woman in the OP’s rugby example wasn’t rape. In this case, she gave consent to the original two guys, however she gave no consent to the others nor was any implied. Her failure to be able to protest is not affirmative consent. That makes it rape. No matter how she felt during the encounter since there was no conect to begin with there is no grey area to contest. She may not have felt safe to say ‘No’ but that does not chage the fact that she never said ‘Yes’. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/62 "2009-08-20T19:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure it [lying there stiffly] is. It’s not eagerness, but it IS consent. They’re not the same thing. In what way is it consent? If she never said or did anything, then she never gave consent. Unless you’re assuming some situation where she _did_ consent earlier, and then just lies there stiffly? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/63 "2009-08-20T19:59:12Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Well then it must be true. :rolleyes: > > I’d guess that the number of women who genuinely consider any slight lack of enthusiasm (during or after) to be rape is about equal to the number of men who consider anything other than screaming flailing resistance to be consent. It has absolutely nothing to do with “slight lack of enthusiasm” but the theme that’s been repeated in this thread in almost every example were there has clearly been consent given but ended up leaving the woman feeling upset and traumatized is considered rape because of the way it made her feel and not because of what actually happened during the sexual encounter. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/64 "2009-08-20T20:01:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In what way is it consent? If she never said or did anything, then she never gave consent. Unless you’re assuming some situation where she did consent earlier, and then just lies there stiffly? She never gave \*explicit, affirmative \*consent. Again, assuming the lack of a physical threat, she is in control of this situation. She can say no. She can get up and leave. She has any number of options besides having sex with him, so one must assume that the sex was consensual. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/65 "2009-08-20T20:12:17Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Assuming we’re not talking about a situation that may become violent, assent equals consent. When you “give in” it may be really crappy sex, but it is most assuredly not rape. Not unless we’re honestly going to suggest that women are generally just too delicate to assert themselves in situations where they are not physically threatened. And fuck that noise. I agree. The meme that no always means no and yes sometimes means no, and “If she’s drunk, DON’T TOUCH HER unless you’re ABSOLUTELY sure and even if you are sure and you do and she’s begging for it, don’t do it because drunk people don’t always know what they want,” bothers me. I know we had a thread where this came up a while ago. It bothered me then, too, because the drunk guy who has sex with a girl whom he may find unattractive in the light of day is just a gross horndog that we laugh at. The drunk girl who has sex with someone might not know what she’s saying so we’d better REALLY make sure she wants it, and even then, it’s better to wait till she’s sober. The thing is, in certain circles/among certain people, you get looked at like a monster if you suggest it’s a misunderstanding (the guy sees the girl lying there and thinks sex is on the table, the girl thinks he’s an asshole for not realizing she doesn’t want sex) and not an actual rape. And I think that drunkenness makes the whole thing even cloudier. Is “I was so drunk and out of it” an excuse for not leaving or making your intentions clear? Especially if your partner is also drunk and doesn’t know how many drinks=the limit for you? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/66 "2009-08-20T20:15:43Z")
For those interested in this topic, I recommend watching the documentary [Raw Deal: A Question of Consent](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0239879/). In this doco, you can watch actual video footage (clear vision, with sound) of a sex act in which the girl involved claimed (to police) was rape, and the guy involved said was consensual. The guy was arrested, but later acquitted due to the tape, much to the outrage of many womens’ rights groups. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/67 "2009-08-20T20:24:30Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > For those interested in this topic, I recommend watching the documentary [Raw Deal: A Question of Consent](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0239879/). In this doco, you can watch actual video footage (clear vision, with sound) of a sex act in which the girl involved claimed (to police) was rape, and the guy involved said was consensual. The guy was arrested, but later acquitted due to the tape, much to the outrage of many womens’ rights groups. I’d really like to see this. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem available on Netflix. Is it available to watch anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/68 "2009-08-20T20:29:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*\*DigitalC \*\* has a point. There are a lot of women who, to put it delicately, are simply dumb psycho sluts. They go out partying, get wasted, hook up with random guys, get kicked out the next morning and then feel terrible when they realized that it did not, in fact, fill their bottomless emotional void. Or maybe they regret who they hooked up with or what they did. Either way, these women will often lie and make excuses in order to feel better about themselves and not actually look like sluts - “I was drunk”, “I must have passed out”, “I told him I didn’t want sex”, etc. Any of those lies can now be construed as “he raped me”. You know what would really help with this? Not classifying these women as sluts. While it is always disconcerting when someone cries ‘Crazy women lie about being raped all the time!’ two or three posts into any online discussion about rape, I can’t help but think that the few who do are looking for an excuse for having had sex, anything that won’t make it seem that they were so desperate and whorish they actually agreed to have sex, or even sought it out in the first place. Feminism isn’t just about making rape illegal (let’s not forget that much rape e.g. spousal rape was legal up until a decade or two ago), it’s about giving people the freedom to say _yes_ as much as the freedom to say no, to have a fulfilling sex life without being shamed for it, and to realize that their body is not public property until they argue otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/69 "2009-08-20T20:39:14Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’d really like to see this. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem available on Netflix. Is it available to watch anywhere else? I chanced in to it while browsing the shelves of my local video store. Not sure if this is available online anywhere.. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/70 "2009-08-20T20:43:48Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I chanced in to it while browsing the shelves of my local video store. Not sure if this is available online anywhere.. I think youtube has parts of it. I’ll try to check it out later on tonight. **Catfight** , I agree that people shouldn’t be called sluts for doing what they want. I just don’t feel comfortable with the idea of “Women are strong/independent until…blank, and then they need protection.” Like, the woman who’s drunk and goes home with a guy and ends up having sex/oral sex and not saying no because she’s scared or she’s drunk and it’s easier to just lie there. If she’s adult enough to go home with a strange guy, shouldn’t she be adult enough to assert herself? I do think that you have the right to change your mind and the minute you say no and the other person continues, that is rape. I just question the idea that a man has to always ask if she’s sure/ready because she might not be. We rarely ask women to make sure that the guy is ready for sex. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/71 "2009-08-20T20:45:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*\*DigitalC \*\* has a point. There are a lot of women who, to put it delicately, are simply dumb psycho sluts. They go out partying, get wasted, hook up with random guys, get kicked out the next morning and then feel terrible when they realized that it did not, in fact, fill their bottomless emotional void. Or maybe they regret who they hooked up with or what they did. Either way, these women will often lie and make excuses in order to feel better about themselves and not actually look like sluts - “I was drunk”, “I must have passed out”, “I told him I didn’t want sex”, etc. Any of those lies can now be construed as “he raped me”. Wow, that’s not at all what i said or meant. I don’t think anyone is lying, i think they truly did not want to have sex and as a result they have the same feelings that someone who was raped does, all i am saying is having those feeling don’t make what was a consensual sex act a rape. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/72 "2009-08-20T21:01:51Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Wow, that’s not at all what i said or meant. I don’t think anyone is lying, i think they truly did not want to have sex and as a result they have the same feelings that someone who was raped does, all i am saying is having those feeling don’t make what was a consensual sex act a rape. What you’re describing is a common reaction among people who fail to assert themselves and allow themselves to be taken advantage of in any way. They decide that it’s not their fault for being pushovers, the other person must have been malicious. It’s not unique to sexual situations, and it’s certainly not uniquely feminine. As a matter of fact, I think it’s often referred to as “Nice Guy Syndrome”. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/73 "2009-08-20T22:44:12Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re calling bullshit on but that is the story my friend told me. My initial reaction to her starting off with “I was raped” was to kill the guy. After hearing her story, I quit asking questions because I agree with you unless there is something else I don’t think she was raped. I think the guy was an asshole for not realizing he had a less then enthusiastic partner but that shouldn’t be a crime. I’m calling bullshit on her story. > [@Cat Fight](#): > > You know what would really help with this? Not classifying these women as sluts. While it is always disconcerting when someone cries ‘Crazy women lie about being raped all the time!’ two or three posts into any online discussion about rape, I can’t help but think that the few who do are looking for an excuse for having had sex, anything that won’t make it seem that they were so desperate and whorish they actually agreed to have sex, or even sought it out in the first place. They do it because crying “rape” is power. Even if the allegations are unfounded, the man still has to defend himself and his reputation can be damaged irrevocably. Women get nuts when they feel slighted. They lash out or try to humiliate the man who slighted them. > [@Cat Fight](#): > > Feminism isn’t just about making rape illegal (let’s not forget that much rape e.g. spousal rape was legal up until a decade or two ago), it’s about giving people the freedom to say yes as much as the freedom to say no, to have a fulfilling sex life without being shamed for it, and to realize that their body is not public property until they argue otherwise. While everyone has their own standards on sexual permiscuity, I generally make the distinction at the point where women willingly degrade themselves in an attempt to achieve some sort of validation or self worth. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/74 "2009-08-20T22:46:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m calling bullshit on her story. Why? Okay, based on what **oredigger** said, it’s a vague story. But when the facts are just that the woman changed her mind about having sex–that seems like a pretty common scenario. > [@](#): > > They do it because crying “rape” is power. Even if the allegations are unfounded, the man still has to defend himself and his reputation can be damaged irrevocably. Women get nuts when they feel slighted. They lash out or try to humiliate the man who slighted them. Yeah, “crying rape” leads to all kinds of fun stuff. No one ever impugns your reputation and there are free goody bags, too. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/75 "2009-08-20T22:53:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Women get nuts when they feel slighted. They lash out or try to humiliate the man who slighted them. I suppose there’ll never be the slightest chance that we can get through any conversation like this without using the words “women” or “men” as though any given \ ***50%** of the population \* share any particular trait in common aside from genitalia, but I’ll also never stop pointing out how ridiculously fucking stupid it is. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/76 "2009-08-20T23:10:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > They do it because crying “rape” is power. Even if the allegations are unfounded, the man still has to defend himself and his reputation can be damaged irrevocably. Women get nuts when they feel slighted. They lash out or try to humiliate the man who slighted them. And, as I noted upthread, a major contingent will always be trying to lower the standards of evidence and increase the punishment for it. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/77 "2009-08-21T01:03:53Z")
I’m also kind of sick of reading about things that aren’t rape but are horribly violating all the same experiences. I read yet another Jezebel comment where a woman said something to the effect of, “My ex said he wanted to have sex with me again, I said no, he spent money taking me out, we had sex at his place, he told me it was a ruse to get me into bed, and I knew it wasn’t rape but I felt horribly violated.” I mean, I get that guys (and girls) are assholes about sex, but violated? Really? Are we really so emotionally fragile that a guy “talking us into” sex is a violation? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/78 "2009-08-21T01:40:07Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I agree. The meme that no always means no and yes sometimes means no, and “If she’s drunk, DON’T TOUCH HER unless you’re ABSOLUTELY sure and even if you are sure and you do and she’s begging for it, don’t do it because drunk people don’t always know what they want,” bothers me. I know we had a thread where this came up a while ago. It bothered me then, too, because the drunk guy who has sex with a girl whom he may find unattractive in the light of day is just a gross horndog that we laugh at. The drunk girl who has sex with someone might not know what she’s saying so we’d better REALLY make sure she wants it, and even then, it’s better to wait till she’s sober. One problem with saying that you shouldn’t have sex with someone who has been drinking is that one purpose of drinking is to lower your own inhibitions. And what is a man supposed to do if his wife/girlfriend/date takes a few drinks and comes on to him? “Sorry dear, I know you want me but if you have sex with me you might lie and call me a rapist.” I’m sure _ **that** _ will go over well. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, “crying rape” leads to all kinds of fun stuff. No one ever impugns your reputation and there are free goody bags, too. Of course no one “impugns your reputation”; your name is kept secret, unlike the man’s. It’s a cheap, painless way for any woman so inclined to ruin a man’s life. She’ll face no punishment; he has no recourse. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/79 "2009-08-21T01:54:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course no one “impugns your reputation”; your name is kept secret, unlike the man’s. It’s a cheap, painless way for any woman so inclined to ruin a man’s life. She’ll face no punishment; he has no recourse. Well, even before the stripper who accused the Duke guys of rape was found to be lying, people were calling her a lying bitch. And in the Kobe Bryant rape case, even though her name wasn’t released officially, people on the SDMB mentioned that with five minutes of googling, you could find out her name/address. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884/80 "2009-08-21T03:38:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One problem with saying that you shouldn’t have sex with someone who has been drinking is that one purpose of drinking is to lower your own inhibitions. And what is a man supposed to do if his wife/girlfriend/date takes a few drinks and comes on to him? “Sorry dear, I know you want me but if you have sex with me you might lie and call me a rapist.” I’m sure _ **that** _ will go over well. I think a distinction should be made between having drunk sex with your wife/GF and having drunk sex with a sorority girl or someone you met at the bar for the first time. In the former case, there is a relationship, you know the person, and consent is reasonably implied. In the latter case, even if she seems game, she’s not particularly in her right mind. Wouldn’t it be smarter to forgo sex in that situation? If she really digs you, she’ll fuck you after her hangover goes away (and will probably think you’re quite the gentleman for not taking advantage), and you won’t have to worry about being called a rapist. Everyone wins. What’s the problem with this idea? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-affirmative-consent-as-rape/506884.md?page=5)