Everytime I read one of these threads, I think of all the BS some feminists try to feed us and chuckle some. Yeah right…
Rugby players example. Defence Cousel’s closing speech. “At no time was it indicated that consent was not given nor was there any reason for the accused to suspect that it would not be given. The complainant says that she was too scared to resist. Yet she has admitted under cross examination that at no time was there an overt threat made against her, or indeed was there even an implication that she would be harmed if she resisted. Members of the jury, you must therefore conclude that there was no way for the players to have reasonbaly concluded that consent was not given and thus aquit them of rape”.
Actually now that I think of it, the rugby players example won’t even go to the juiry, the judge will most likely stop the trial at half time.
Fist, I’ll join Cat Fight in asking for a cite for the basic premise that “leftists” are demanding a higher burden of proof for other crimes.
More importantly, I’ll ask what this outrage is doing in a thread about date rape.
Wait a minute. I never consented to a fist. :eek:
But did you say anything? How could I have known that you didn’t consent?
Nitpick - they were Rugby LEAGUE players. Not to say that rugby players are not just as boorish, but the two are separate sports.
But look at it not as the perpetrator, but as the victim: for the victim, the question is less “is this prosecutable” and more “am I allowed to feel misused, upset, violated or do I have to feel guilt, dispair, self-loathing”. Basically, can I have been raped–allowing me to see this act as something that happened to me, not as something that reveals my own deep character flaws–without the other person really having been a rapist?
In other words, if your sister told you this story, would you want to hug her or would you be thinking “what are you complaining about? You did this?”
I don’t see how that is legally possible. The definition of rape means that there is a perpetrator who then faces sever punishment.
Well, that’s part of the problem: the other person could conceivably also be horrified and highly upset of the idea that they’ve unwittingly raped someone.
Are we then using different meanings of “rape”? One for the traumatic subjective experience and another for the transitive action that is a prosecutable crime? Modern penal codes have adapted their definitional language to TokyoPlayer’s observation and removed the emotionally-heavy word from the statute, so the quoted question Manda JO is posing is if the woman may have been “raped” (the personally traumatic experience), even though the man in turn was NOT guilty of “sexual battery” (the statuted criminal offense).
This is unsatisfactory to many people because they don’t like the idea of being guilty in the “court of opinion” while getting off on a court of law, but rather wish for a straight up exoneration. To borrow the phrasing, now HE has to ask himself, does this “reveal a deep character flaw” in him? (IMO sure, you CAN be wrong without being evil; but the fear by many is that she may understand it, but her roomates may decide to start postering the campus with his face anyway…) On the opposite side of the debate there will be those who would also reject the idea of an intransitive “something that happened to me” view of the event, wherein you feel violated but there’s no violator to answer for it, because they’d see that as making some forms of sexual violation something of an “environmental hazard” that the subject is helpless over.
You’re allowed to feel however you like, but you could certainly have absolved yourself of any doubts by simply saying the word “No”. That would make the whole issue a hell of a lot clearer.
IMO no, you can’t have been raped without there having been a rapist. Rape requires intent. “Well, he should have KNOWN how I felt about it, I shouldn’t have to SAY anything.” doesn’t work for sex any better than it works for anything else.
Honestly, if that happened to my sister, I’d hug her, and then say “Why didn’t you say no? You’re a big girl, use your words.”
One of my good friends had something similar happen to her right after we graduated from college. She went home with a guy and proceeded to get naked in his room, at the last minute she told him she didn’t want to have sex tonight and he went a head anyhow.
Unfortunately, she spent the night with him afterwards and he doesn’t remember her saying that she didn’t want to so he was never prosecuted. I gave her lots of sympathy when she needed it but I’ve been careful not to ask too many questions because her version of the facts doesn’t add up to me.
So my answer is both. Before I heard the whole story I was going to hunt him down and kill him now I think it’s a good thing it never went farther then a police investigation right before he left the town so it didn’t do long term damage to his reputation. I still think he’s an asshole but I’m pretty gray on the rapist part.
I think that’s pretty much my reaction, too. And I guess I’d want to know why she was so scared–if she had a legitimate reason, okay, but if it was something as nebulous as the woman in the rock concert thread, I think I’d be way too confused.
I remember when we were in college they gave us a list of scenarios where they asked us to rate the consent-level. Stuff ranging from the obvious (guy and girl go upstairs and she passes out and he has sex with her anyway) to a couple who go home together and have sex even though she’s not really in the mood. In that case it wasn’t rape but the “counselors” pointed out that a lot of times body language makes things apparent and even if it wasn’t technically rape it wasn’t the most consensual thing ever. I asked how the guy would even know and they replied that a lot of times body language gives away how someone is feeling. Which seems a bit ridiculous to me.
I do understand that you need to be aware of your partner’s body language. I suppose if you ask them if they want to have sex and they’re just lying there stiffly, that’s not consent. But I do think both sides need to be clearer in some cases and that includes making sure you have consent and making it clear that you don’t consent (if you don’t).
Sure it is. It’s not eagerness, but it IS consent. They’re not the same thing.
I guess that’s an interesting question. I know I’ve read about scenarios where the guy asks the woman for sex a few times, she says no. He asks again and she kind of just lies there ignoring him, and he takes that as yes. She meant, “No,” and she was sick of him asking and just kind of gave in. I don’t know if that’s rape in any meaningful sense of the word. It certainly doesn’t sound all that sexy and if I were in that situation I’d just say, “No.” Or if someone started to initiate sex without asking–I’m not sure my default position would be, “Oh no, he’ll flip out and kill me if I say no, so I’ll just get it over with.” Is silence indicative of consent?
Just because you feel misused, upset and violated and feel guilt despair and self loathing does not make it a rape. Its very possible to feel all those things after entirely consensual sex, this doesn’t make your feelings invalid but it doesn’t make you a rape victim and your partner a rapist either. Women tend to have a problem separating feelings from facts, if something upsets them then its by default wrong because it caused a bad feeling and this is what leads to equating “bad/traumatic sexual experience” with rape when the facts don’t match that result.
Assuming we’re not talking about a situation that may become violent, assent equals consent. When you “give in” it may be really crappy sex, but it is most assuredly not rape. Not unless we’re honestly going to suggest that women are generally just too delicate to assert themselves in situations where they are not physically threatened. And fuck that noise.
That’s about as helpful a generalization as “men can’t help themselves”.
Really. She follows a guy home, gets naked and then decides she doesn’t want to have sex. When did this ephiphany happen?
I’m going to call bullshit on this one.
I feel like I’m reading the opinions of a lot of people who have never had sex in their life. It’s like what Cat Fight said. It’s not like sex “just happens” like some dude just accidently brushing against your tits on his way past you in a crowded elevator. There are a series of concrete and deliberate steps that happen between “How yoooo doin’?” and “Sure I’ll call you and I promise not to tell anyone, babe.” where at any time the woman can put the kabosh on sex for the evening.
- You went to a bar or a party where you were likely to met people looking for sex
- You are dressed in a way that advertises your desire for sex
- You are probably drinking and may be doing drugs as well
- You and your friends are hanging around a bunch of dudes who probably aren’t interested in your thoughts on world politics
- You spent a significant amount of time talking to some specific guy
- Maybe you were making out with him at the party
- You traveled with the guy back to his place or he traveled to yours
- You invited him in
- You went into the bedroom
- You started getting undressed
and so on…
I mean at this point, the intent is pretty clear unless you say otherwise. And you should probably get dressed and leave too. Otherwise it’s “No your honor. At no point did she say “no”. Neither while I was fucking her up the ass nor while she was riding my cock like a rodeo clown.”
**DigitalC ** has a point. There are a lot of women who, to put it delicately, are simply dumb psycho sluts. They go out partying, get wasted, hook up with random guys, get kicked out the next morning and then feel terrible when they realized that it did not, in fact, fill their bottomless emotional void. Or maybe they regret who they hooked up with or what they did. Either way, these women will often lie and make excuses in order to feel better about themselves and not actually look like sluts - “I was drunk”, “I must have passed out”, “I told him I didn’t want sex”, etc. Any of those lies can now be construed as “he raped me”.
This entire thread is based on my useless generalization.
I’m not sure what you’re calling bullshit on but that is the story my friend told me. My initial reaction to her starting off with “I was raped” was to kill the guy. After hearing her story, I quit asking questions because I agree with you unless there is something else I don’t think she was raped. I think the guy was an asshole for not realizing he had a less then enthusiastic partner but that shouldn’t be a crime.
But in general I agree with you there are lots of places along the way to stop from having sex even once you’re naked it’s not guaranteed. I’ve got a buddy who is well hung and has had several women decline once they saw him up close and personal. I think that for it to be rape she has to do more then lay back and be unhappy about what is going to happen.
Well then it must be true. :rolleyes:
I’d guess that the number of women who genuinely consider any slight lack of enthusiasm (during or after) to be rape is about equal to the number of men who consider anything other than screaming flailing resistance to be consent.