# Lack of Freewill doesn't mean lack of choice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-freewill-doesnt-mean-lack-of-choice/954128 "2021-11-10T15:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 112
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-freewill-doesnt-mean-lack-of-choice/954128/112 "2021-12-05T18:04:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If the thoughts in my mind are a critical part of the “lattice” that decides my life course then intention is still important. Such intention doesn’t originate anything, though—it’s an epiphenomenon. So it doesn’t have any part in shaping the course of the universe in that sense. > [@Mijin](#): > > How so? You’re implying here that Determinism itself is mysterious and I do not think you have shown this. I’ve given the argument several times throughout this thread, quoted it twice in the [post above the one you’re replying to](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-freewill-doesnt-mean-lack-of-choice/954128/105). You presumably don’t find it convincing, but if you’ve given a reason as to why so far, I’ve missed it. > [@Mijin](#): > > Now, would _you_ be willing to change your mind? Despite years of writing on this topic, including, I believe in academic papers, would you be hypothetically willing to throw it all away and start over? Well, I’d certainly hope so—although of course I’m subject to as much bias and motivated reasoning as the next guy, so I can’t ever be quite sure. But for one thing, if you think I believe in free will, you have me pegged wrong—I merely don’t think the arguments marshalled against it work the way they’re intended to, but that doesn’t settle the matter, of course. Also, I can at least point to the fact that my opinion on this _has_ changed, in the past—some years ago, I was making exactly the same sort of arguments you’re making now here on this board, e.g. in [this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-free-will-i-keep-hearing-about/509574): > [@What is this free will I keep hearing about?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-free-will-i-keep-hearing-about/509574/5): > > “Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.” – _Arthur Schopenhauer_ > > I think that’s still the best assessment of the issue. If you intend for ‘freedom’ to mean the freedom to do what you will, the freedom from coercion, from duress prompting you to do _against_ your will, then you have free will in that sense – most arguments for compatibilism (that I know) are in some way of this kind; however, if you intend for ‘freedom’ to mean something which is not determined by prior cause, something’s being left to a choice that itself is free, i.e. not merely a consequence of some decision procedure (for instance: chocolate tastes better to me than broccoli, so I’ll eat broccoli), then you run into problems. And a bit later on: > [@What is this free will I keep hearing about?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-free-will-i-keep-hearing-about/509574/123): > > But I do get to start with consistency, without which any position is self-defeating – and something both requiring freedom and directedness (as is necessary for will), which are synonyms for ‘not being determined’ and ‘being determined’, is simply inconsistent. It’s only after thinking about these issues some more that I eventually realized this sort of objection wasn’t as strong as I had believed, and moreover, can be made equally well for the supposed alternatives to free will. Of course, maybe my past self was more enlightened than I am now, and my current doubts just stem from some deep-seated, unconscious desire to believe in free will—but in all honesty, as far as I can tell, I don’t particularly prefer either alternative (i.e. there being or not being free will). It’s simply irrelevant for most things that matter—as I said upthread, my path on a rollercoaster is perfectly predetermined, but that doesn’t impinge on my enjoyment, or make riding it pointless in any way. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-freewill-doesnt-mean-lack-of-choice/954128)._