# Lack of trust in women is still a huge problem (a very sad rape story) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691 "2015-12-17T14:08:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/21 "2015-12-18T17:16:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but AFAICT this woman didn’t falsely accuse anyone in particular - the police just thought she had made up the story of being raped. > > But maybe that is something to consider when deciding when to prosecute someone for filing a false police report of rape - does she falsely (perhaps maliciously) accuse someone in particular, or just make up a story? I can see prosecuting if she accuses her ex-boyfriend of rape and it turns out he was in Cleveland at the time, but just “I was raped/maybe I dreamed it/it didn’t happen” probably not. Even if the police spent a lot of time investigating what they believed to be a false report - because in this case it appears they were wrong to think so, and because of **iiandyiii** says about not discouraging women from reporting rape. Even if it never gets proven one way or the other. > > **Lamia** - were these mostly stranger rapes that the reporter was talking about? > > Regards, > Shodan I think I mostly agree with this, though I’d still be worried about any chance of dissuading women from reporting rapes when they know (or suspect they know) who raped them, out of fear of prosecution (or just disbelief, ridicule, etc.) for false accusations. I believe that it was totally wrong and inappropriate for these officers to use threats in any way towards someone who claimed to be raped, and if this happens in other cases, it should stop and those who threaten should be disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/22 "2015-12-19T14:23:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Sadly rape is […] the crime with the most false reports. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/23 "2015-12-20T00:55:01Z")
I’m sure we can all agree on two things: (1) Rape is bad, (2) False accusations of rape are also bad. Unfortunately, any justice system that cracks down on false accusations of rape will probably also deny some rape victims justice in the process. And any justice system that tries to get a higher conviction rate for rape will probably also get some innocent people wrongfully convicted in the process. It requires extreme precision to convict the guilty and acquit the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/24 "2015-12-20T01:02:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m sure we can all agree on two things: > > (1) Rape is bad, > (2) False accusations of rape are also bad. > Unfortunately, any justice system that cracks down on false accusations of rape will probably also deny some rape victims justice in the process. And any justice system that tries to get a higher conviction rate for rape will probably also get some innocent people wrongfully convicted in the process. It requires extreme precision to convict the guilty and acquit the innocent. Yes. That doesn’t mean that bad practices shouldn’t be highlighted and corrected. Do you think that there’s a chance that the woman in my linked story was mistreated, and the officers involved should have been disciplined, and threats should never be used against people claiming to be victims of sexual violence? Or would you rather just say that it’s difficult to get it perfect? ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/25 "2015-12-21T16:09:46Z")
Is this story a representative example of systemic mistrust of female rape victims by the police? Indeed is there any evidence male rape victims are automatically afforded more credibility? Here is a brief account of an equally troubled UK woman: In ten years, since the age of 13, she has reported at least eleven rapes. All the accusations are believed to be false. The last few have seen her in court, found guilty but she continued to make the accusations until eventually she was jailed. She is typically identifying specific men as rapists because she wants to hurt them. > **[Compulsive liar jailed after 11 false rape claims in decade](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9894588/Compulsive-liar-jailed-after-11-false-rape-claims-in-decade.html)** > > A compulsive liar made almost a dozen false claims that she was raped in nearly a decade after making her first complaint at the age of 13, a court has heard. Is that story definitive proof woman are believed too much? Or are both these women’s stories outliers? TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/26 "2015-12-21T17:11:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Cite? Most crimes have a false report rate of 2%. A Department of Justice report in 1997 found a false report rate for rape of [8%.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape) A british study done by the home office found 8% and a study by the group “Making a difference” found a 7% rate in the US. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/27 "2015-12-21T17:29:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes. That doesn’t mean that bad practices shouldn’t be highlighted and corrected. Do you think that there’s a chance that the woman in my linked story was mistreated, and the officers involved should have been disciplined, and threats should never be used against people claiming to be victims of sexual violence? Or would you rather just say that it’s difficult to get it perfect? What about alleged victims of other crimes? Would you argue that they should be granted the same treatment, and if not why? What about a man bringing charges of a false rape accusation against the alleged victim? Should he be always trusted and never pushed or threatened, either? Is there _never_ a case when women reporting a rape should be distrusted? If there are such cases in your opinion, that should be the threshold? At which point should the police be allowed to not be so nice with the alleged victim? Is there _ever_ a case when the woman should be prosecuted for a false rape report (and presumably in this case, she would be threteaned with prosecution first)? If you think there are such cases (that is, that at least in some cases, the false accuser should be prosecuted), and given that the police can always be mistaken in one direction or the other, should they be disciplined every time they got it wrong? Should they be disciplined also when they mistakenly believed the alleged victim and gave a difficult time to the innocent accused man? Should they be disciplined every time they were wrong for all crimes reports or only for rape, and why? For instance, should they be disciplined if they didn’t believe my elderly mother who states that his neighbours are taping her phone (which is extremely unlikely) and that terrorists stole her checkbook (proven untrue since) and it turns out that indeed neighbours/terrorists victimized her? In this particular case, besides the fact thay they were factually wrong, what makes you think that they erred so much that they deserve such discipline? What makes it an egrerious fault that requires punishment rather than a human mistake based on reasonably considered facts (troubled “victim”, guardians who distrust her, lack of evidence, the “victim” saying that it might be just a dream…) that is unavoidable? What were exactly the “bad practices” in this specific case? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/28 "2015-12-21T17:39:34Z")
Women getting the short end of the stick for various unfair reasons when it comes to rape and reporting it? Sure, happens and probably too much. This case? Good grief, this sounds like a case the Black Lives Matter movement would choose. Or in other words, take a real problem and pick almost the anti-poster child version of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/29 "2015-12-21T21:23:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I am sure he was thinking of a missing person report. If you report some guy got grabbed and tossed in a van I seriously doubt they give it 24 hours before investigating. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking of. Most of the parents in my circle of friends assume that no one could ever go missing if they were not kidnapped, and I fell into the same bad habit. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/30 "2015-12-21T23:29:11Z")
A local (to me) woman has just been jailed for making a [false claim](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-35135635) of sexual assault. > [@BBC](#): > > Sheriff Richard McFarlane said the impact of such an allegation on Mr Canavan’s life was “probably incalculable”. > [@BBC](#): > > “But in her head she does not believe she committed this offence.” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/31 "2015-12-22T00:18:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A local (to me) woman has just been jailed for making a [false claim](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-35135635) of sexual assault. Apparently the police spent days poring over CCTV recordings and thereby managed to, if you will, prove a negative. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/32 "2015-12-22T00:33:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Making up a story … should not generally be prosecuted. I definitely think prosecution was bizarre in this case, but why is it that making up a story (which I take it is the same as “filing a false police report”) shouldn’t generally be prosecuted? Also, btw, are you “Puzz Legal” or “Puzzle Gal”? If I can ask. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/33 "2015-12-22T01:19:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What about alleged victims of other crimes? Would you argue that they should be granted the same treatment, and if not why? What about a man bringing charges of a false rape accusation against the alleged victim? Should he be always trusted and never pushed or threatened, either? > > Is there _never_ a case when women reporting a rape should be distrusted? If there are such cases in your opinion, that should be the threshold? At which point should the police be allowed to not be so nice with the alleged victim? > > Is there _ever_ a case when the woman should be prosecuted for a false rape report (and presumably in this case, she would be threteaned with prosecution first)? > > If you think there are such cases (that is, that at least in some cases, the false accuser should be prosecuted), and given that the police can always be mistaken in one direction or the other, should they be disciplined every time they got it wrong? Should they be disciplined also when they mistakenly believed the alleged victim and gave a difficult time to the innocent accused man? Should they be disciplined every time they were wrong for all crimes reports or only for rape, and why? For instance, should they be disciplined if they didn’t believe my elderly mother who states that his neighbours are taping her phone (which is extremely unlikely) and that terrorists stole her checkbook (proven untrue since) and it turns out that indeed neighbours/terrorists victimized her? > > In this particular case, besides the fact thay they were factually wrong, what makes you think that they erred so much that they deserve such discipline? What makes it an egrerious fault that requires punishment rather than a human mistake based on reasonably considered facts (troubled “victim”, guardians who distrust her, lack of evidence, the “victim” saying that it might be just a dream…) that is unavoidable? What were exactly the “bad practices” in this specific case? Pushed is one thing, but no, I don’t believe people who claim to have been victimized should ever be threatened by the police. And in this case I believe the cops who threatened her should have been disciplined. If they have good evidence that a false report was filled maliciously, then it’s reasonable to file charges. But there was no such evidence in this case. They shouldn’t always be automatically trusted, but that’s different than threats and using adversarial tactics, in my mind - people who say the have been attacked shouldn’t be adversaries of law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/34 "2015-12-27T18:59:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Most crimes have a false report rate of 2%. A Department of Justice report in 1997 found a false report rate for rape of [8%.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape) A british study done by the home office found 8% and a study by the group “Making a difference” found a 7% rate in the US. I’d really question the results of that study. From the article in the OP, the rate of unfounded accusations for cities Lynwood’s size is 4.3%. Lynwood’s was 21.3%. There seems to be a lot of subjectivity in what constitutes a false report. And an 18 year old study is going to be suspect - rape investigations have come a long way in two decades. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/35 "2015-12-27T19:23:17Z")
Women aren’t believed partly because, IMO, people just don’t want such terrible things to be true because they could happen to them or their loved ones. It’s not an evil impulse. And, as the linked article above states, rapists often choose women who are less likely to be believed. > [@TCMF-2L](#): > > Is this story a representative example of systemic mistrust of female rape victims by the police? Indeed is there any evidence male rape victims are automatically afforded more credibility? > > Here is a brief account of an equally troubled UK woman: > > In ten years, since the age of 13, she has reported at least eleven rapes. All the accusations are believed to be false. The last few have seen her in court, found guilty but she continued to make the accusations until eventually she was jailed. She is typically identifying specific men as rapists because she wants to hurt them. > > [Compulsive liar jailed after 11 false rape claims in decade](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9894588/Compulsive-liar-jailed-after-11-false-rape-claims-in-decade.html) > > Is that story definitive proof woman are believed too much? Or are both these women’s stories outliers? > > TCMF-2L The first woman is the woman in the OP, who really was raped and wasn’t believed. The second woman wasn’t raped and wasn’t believed. I’m not sure how that’s proof women are believed too much - your cite counteracts your claim. Prosecuting Marie does seem very odd when no individual was falsely accused, no lives ruined by her accusation. It seems like it’s for a waste of public resources but then more were spent prosecuting her. It’s very difficult for women - and men, in different ways which deserve different treatment - to report rape; I know there’s an internet thing now of it being great to be a victim (not just of rape), because you get sympathy, but there’s a reason Marie has hidden her identity; she has kids. As a victim, you are also, automatically, a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/36 "2015-12-30T16:26:42Z")
I wonder how much the trained distrust of police officers comes into it? They’re trained to distrust everything until they have evidence. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/37 "2015-12-31T04:27:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …How often are actual rapes dismissed by police because the victim isn’t terribly confident, or is in shock, or doesn’t have a perfect memory, or has a troubled past? For every incident like this that is eventually “corrected” (as much as such a blunder can possibly be), how many are not?.. A major problem with the “Let’s find out the _real_ crime rate” type questions is that we don’t really have a good way to determine guilt or innocence outside of the criminal court system. If the jury says X, but you say Y, then why should I believe you? A court already ruled on it. Do you think you are smarter than them? > [@puddleglum](#): > > Sadly rape is the serious crime that goes most unreported and the crime with the most false reports. Police must find a way to separate the false reports from the real ones because resources that go into investigating false reports mean real rapes may stay unsolved longer… Another problem is that rape charges are often devastating to defendants, even if they are innocent. A sex crime charge is a social death sentence nowadays. If anyone and everyone can just cry “zomg rape!!1!!1one” and destroy the life of anyone they want to, then we, as a society, have to reign that in somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/38 "2015-12-31T13:49:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For every incident like this that is eventually “corrected” (as much as such a blunder can possibly be), how many are not? ISTM that the problem with dealing with accusations of rape, as well as false accusations of rape, is that the maxim is “It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than that one innocent man is punished”. Even if it is a hundred guilty rapists. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/39 "2015-12-31T14:22:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ISTM that the problem with dealing with accusations of rape, as well as false accusations of rape, is that the maxim is “It is better that a hundred guilty men go free than that one innocent man is punished”. Even if it is a hundred guilty rapists. > > Regards, > Shodan But it wasn’t just the perp going free, it was the woman treated so abominably. How many times are rape victims treated so poorly by police? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691/40 "2015-12-31T15:28:21Z")
I don’t know how often it happens. Do you have any figures? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lack-of-trust-in-women-is-still-a-huge-problem-a-very-sad-rape-story/740691.md?page=3)