# Ladies and Gents - The July Surprise. On Schedule. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488 "2004-07-29T20:00:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/61 "2004-07-30T01:44:58Z")
Well, the list must be getting short, since we advised that 75% of the top Al Qeuda leadership has been neutralized. Always kinda wondered where that statistic came from. Hadn’t heard that they had a membership list. Badthought! Badthought! Trust the Leader! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/62 "2004-07-30T02:06:24Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > What a mindless fucking idiot you are, Bricker. Of all the mindless fucking idiots on these Boards, Bricker, you have got to be the most mindless, idiotic fucker of them all. Really? That’s pretty heady company. Well, as mom always said, if you’re going to do something, do it well. You wouldn’t have any actual… ya know… facts or anything hidden there to add to the admittedly brilliant rebuttal above, would you? Just as icing on the cake; it’s clear that the above already has me wriggling in the crushing grip of reason. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/63 "2004-07-30T02:10:58Z")
How the fuck did **Bricker** dethrone me? Or is the ‘most mindless, idiotic fucker of them all’ just the person that happens to be disagreeing with **lissener** at the moment? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/64 "2004-07-30T02:36:48Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > How the fuck did **Bricker** dethrone me? Or is the ‘most mindless, idiotic fucker of them all’ just the person that happens to be disagreeing with **lissener** at the moment? I have to admit, it’s a pretty close call. I wouldn’t piss on either of you if you were on fire. You’ll notice, you mindlessly dishonest fucking idiot, that Bricker wasn’t disagreeing with me; I hadn’t checked into the thread yet. He was just being a mindless idiotic fucker. You two should settle down, unplug the computers–you’d have to decide whose mother’s basement to share–and just fuck each other to death in some dark, orgasmic monstrosity of dishonesty and idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/65 "2004-07-30T02:51:49Z")
I think\*\* lissener \*\* needs a hug… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/66 "2004-07-30T02:53:45Z")
Gee, **lissener** , don’t hold back. Tell us how you _really_ feel. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/67 "2004-07-30T03:02:09Z")
Um…I’m going to stick up for **Bricker**. He wasn’t trying to be a cock, he was genuinely trying to clarify what sort of prediction had been made and later clarified that his remark about the search function was literal, not facetious. I don’t agree with Bricker on practically anything but I have not found him to be either mindless or dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/68 "2004-07-30T03:07:57Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > How the fuck did **Bricker** dethrone me? As much as it pains me to say this, I have to admit that made me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/69 "2004-07-30T03:37:46Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > …you’d have to decide whose mother’s basement to share–and just fuck each other to death in some dark, orgasmic monstrosity of dishonesty and idiocy. You have some serious mommy and/or daddy issues that you need to work out. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > As much as it pains me to say this, I have to admit that made me laugh. I just like a little certainty in my life. If I am the ‘most mindless, idiotic fucker of them all’, then I can rest on my laurels. If not, I have a goal. _Shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/70 "2004-07-30T05:49:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think it’s rock solid, i just think it’s fishy. If there had been no New Republic story I wouldn’t give it a second thought. I’m not accusing, I’m _asking_- why did they specify the week of the DNC for a capture? It’s awfully coincidental if nothing else- not that they caught a dude during the week of the DNC but that they caught one after a New Republic story _said_ that they were pressuring Pakistan for such a capture during this very week. > > I’m willing to give a wide degree of latitude for genuine happenstance. It’s possible that the capture on sunday was pure chance. Having said that, There’s no doubt in my mind that they would hold off on an announcement to manipulate the news cycle- that’s just fucking routine politics. If the Dems get a video of GWB molesting a poodle tomorrow, they will save until it’s Bush’s night to speak at the RNC. That’s just part of the game, There’s nothing exceptionally dirty about it and it requires no foil products to suspect it. It’s using a fortuitous event to the best [political advantage. I would not cry conspiracy for that. > > It’s just that I’ve got a little Columbo in the back of my head with that one last little question. Why did they specify that THIS would be a preferred week for a capture. OK, I can pretty much agree with you here. Yeah, it’s “fishy”. Makes you kinda wonder. But in the end, I have to say that this is one of those things we’ll just never know for sure. Might as well let it go, and concentrate on the things we DO know, and that DO matter. > [@](#): > > Oh- and Kerry can’t make an issue of it because if he did, the media would make him out to be a loon. He’d be cutting his own throat. A loon, huh? Unlike so many on this board who jump at this sort of thing? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/71 "2004-07-30T05:53:02Z")
By God, you people are becoming fucking nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/72 "2004-07-30T06:10:37Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > By God, you people are becoming fucking nuts. What, you mean it isn’t the least bit troublesome to you that what seemed like a paranoid theory now shows some (shaky, admittedly) evidence is being correct? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/73 "2004-07-30T06:12:27Z")
Just shows you the efficiency of the Bushiviks. Took Nixon almost 6 years to make me this crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/74 "2004-07-30T06:13:51Z")
> [@Gadfly](#): > > What, you mean it isn’t the least bit troublesome to you that what seemed like a paranoid theory now shows some (shaky, admittedly) evidence is being correct? Of being correct. This is the second mistake in two posts. Get your head in the game, Gad! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/75 "2004-07-30T06:15:13Z")
I agree – watching the Bush apologists spin this into One Big Innocent Coincidence That Has Absolutely Nothing To Do With Political Gains For George W. Bush induces nausea faster than fifteen rounds on [Medusa.](http://www.thrillride.com/medusa/medusa.html) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/76 "2004-07-30T06:42:22Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > . . . I don’t agree with Bricker on practically anything but I have not found him to be either mindless or dishonest. Then you’re nuts, dude. You know how you know if Bricker is lying? His keyboard makes a clicking sound. I’m not talking about presenting facts falsely; I’m talking about pathological disingenuousness in a debate: he never responds to what you say, because he can’t. So instead he rewords it for you, or something along those lines, and pretends you said one thing when he knows damn well you said another. He couldn’t win an honest debate about the difference between up and down, so he’s gotten into a pathologically consistent habit of debating dishonestly. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/77 "2004-07-30T07:14:04Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > The Bush administration tells the Pakistanis: “We really want a big catch during the DNC. Give us one and you’ll see some quid pro quo down the line. Maybe those F-16s you want. Or maybe we’ll go easier on you about your sloppy nuclear program.” Part of the problem is that the Pakistanis really have not done what they are supposed to do. Musharaff is getting pretty much of a free ride , so far. The administration has been sympathetic to the fact that his country is full of wahabi wingnuts that would love to start some sort of Civil war. Pakistan , is not going to see one F-16 , until they finally commit forces, the whole july surprise was supposed to be a combined offensive of Pakistani troops wading into that province that they own , but don’t really control, as beaters ,while American special forces and light infantry would move against the opposite side in Afganistan. This is still to come , producing this guy from 98 is gravy , but not the meat of the surprise so to speak. > [@](#): > > Today’s announcement provides **additional confirmation** that the original New Republic article was correct. The fact that the catch is not a big headline grabber is immaterial. The Pakistanis just can’t make OBL materialize on demand. IMHO , Osama is dead Three years ago , the FBI requested DNA samples from relatives of his for the purpose of identifying some smear that was found on the wall of a cave , in A-stan. > [@](#): > > The point is not that someone was captured during the convention. It’s that someone was captured during the convention **after** a bunch of sources independently said that the White House was trying to engineer that someone would be captured during the convention. I Like the idea behind this , dilute the coverage of kerry , with some captured wingnut , shows imagination. Course Americans may not like it , and vote accordingly . > [@](#): > > **It’s unethical for the White House to be using its reationship with foreign governments to help it win elections**. It’s precisely this sort of misuse of government resources for political gain that got Nixon in trouble. Over and over again the Bush White House demonstrates that its an ethical black hole that puts its own political survival and the finances of its cronies ahead of the safety of the American people. So Kerry getting endorsements , admittedly back of the cuff remarks on foreign leaders perfering a particular individual to get the job dont count either. Mind you , this is not kerry specific , Jean Chreticiens nephew , the ambassador to America , pubically stated that Gore would be Canada’s choice to lead America. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/78 "2004-07-30T07:39:14Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Jean Chreticiens nephew , the ambassador to America , pubically stated that Gore would be Canada’s choice to lead America. You know, that’s funny for _so_ many reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/79 "2004-07-30T09:58:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The fact [sic] remains that the H requested a capture for this specific week. I don’t think that word means what you think it means. > [@Declan](#): > > Mind you , this is not kerry specific , Jean Chreticiens nephew , the ambassador to America , pubically stated that Gore would be Canada’s choice to lead America. Right now, he would be my choice, too. See this: [http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0624-15.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0624-15.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488/80 "2004-07-30T13:04:33Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I’m not talking about presenting facts falsely; I’m talking about pathological disingenuousness in a debate: he never responds to what you say, because he can’t. So instead he rewords it for you, or something along those lines, and pretends you said one thing when he knows damn well you said another. He couldn’t win an honest debate about the difference between up and down, so he’s gotten into a pathologically consistent habit of debating dishonestly. Of all the people on the baords to make this accusation, your making it has the most possible irony. I’d try to explain to you how to debate honestly, but I guess you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. On reviewing what people said here, I can see how this is a little stinky: Bush may well have issued an unethical request to Pakistani officials (although, given the anonymity of the official in the NR article, it’s hard to say for sure), and the Pakistanis may have unethically complied with it. It’s not as bad as I was originally thinking folks were suggesting: I thought folks were suggesting that a captive was being held incognito for a long time, or else not being captured, just os he could be paraded at the right moment. I still think that if this story can get confirmed, it’ll be hellacious on the administration–especially if Pakistan complied with the government request by not capturing Ghailani as soon as they were able to. But i tseems a little more plausible to me now. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-and-gents-the-july-surprise-on-schedule/257488.md?page=5)