# Ladies: How bad was this? (A slight cat call I guess) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 16, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552 "2013-02-16T22:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/101 "2013-02-17T17:06:52Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Not that any of this matters, because making audible sexual comments to passersby is not ever a cool thing to do. Yeah, basic etiquette (never mind sexual politics) dictates that you never comment on someone’s appearance. You might be able to get away with it with a close friend, but definitely not a stranger. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > A friend of mine did something similar. I’d wager he tips the scales at about 300lbs. He was getting on a plane and squeezed past a lady who was putting stuff in the overhead compartment. He didn’t say a word, but IIRC he did put his hands on her hips so he wouldn’t knock her over. When he landed he was put in handcuffs and (to make a long story short) $30,000 later he cleared his name. She filed a civil suit against him for sexual harassment and for reason beyond the scope of this thread he has the sneaking suspicion she was just looking for a payday. > > FTR, the 30K was legal costs, not a settlement. Then he can consider it a valuable (if expensive) lesson in how you shouldn’t intimately touch a stranger. I mean, WTF? He grabbed a total stranger’s hips, and somehow thought that wouldn’t come across as a sexual come on? What was wrong with just saying “Excuse me” and waiting 5 seconds for her to move over to let him by? Would he have touched his boss’s hips and expected it to be unremarkable? BTW, I doubt his weight had anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/102 "2013-02-17T17:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Then he can consider it a valuable (if expensive) lesson in how you shouldn’t intimately touch a stranger. I mean, WTF? He grabbed a total stranger’s hips, and somehow thought that wouldn’t come across as a sexual come on? What was wrong with just saying “Excuse me” and waiting 5 seconds for her to move over to let him by? Touching someone, and for that matter cat calls and other sorts of personal remarks, are a way of testing a stranger’s boundaries. Sometimes the touching is sexual, sometimes the touching seems innocent. But it comes down to a question of how far the toucher or talker can go with a particular person. Now, the OP says that he didn’t intend for the women to hear the remarks. However, whether he was innocent or not, just about ALL women have had these sorts of remarks directed to or at them…and in most cases, the remarks are not innocent. The woman called the OP on his behavior, and let him know that it’s not acceptable. She was, in essence, telling him that she’s not an easy target and if he starts something with her she WILL fight back. Yeah, it’s a shame that it has to be this way. Men might see it as harmless fun. Many women are well aware that while an individual might have no evil intentions, there is a small but significant chance that this guy is looking for a target. So many people say of a rape victim “she was asking for it”, but then they’re amazed when a woman makes it clear that unwanted attention IS unwanted. ---
**Author:** ![the\_apples\_fell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@the\_apples\_fell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_apples_fell)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/103 "2013-02-17T18:41:22Z")
Shakes, what I seem to get from this is that you wanted people’s opinions, and then once you were given them, you tried justifying what happened in every way you could, which indicates that you weren’t really prepared to hear people’s opinions unless they happened to be in agreement with what you wanted to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/104 "2013-02-17T19:21:18Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Actually, I didn’t ask. I was asking about the level of offence towards the women. Not about my parenting skills. > > But I claim mea culpa on that one as I’ve been entertaining that argument this whole thread. Actually, you were asking about “this”, and describing the whole event. You did ask “Ladies” to comment, and I’m not in that demographic group, so you can discount me on that basis if you want. But, in the demographic sense, I am you, or at least was years ago. If anybody’s interested in an opinion from that point of view, there it is. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/105 "2013-02-18T07:00:38Z")
> [@colander](#): > > A fun digression: where I live, I have never heard catcalls coming from passersby, construction workers or anyone else with a job. The only people who I ever have seen this behavior from are reeking dreadlocked street vagrants, and they always direct it at people who have ignored their requests for cash. They are such delightful cards and kidders! > > What I’m saying here, **Shakes** , is that I hope you’re teaching your son how to play an acoustic, because the busker market is fiercely competitive. It’s a _fun digression_ to you to conflate “ **reeking dreadlocked street vagrants** ” and hoping Shakes teaches his son how to be a successful busker? Why are you still piling on insults? He was wrong, they were sharp, he was embarrassed. I think he was looking to maybe ease that here, and was a little taken aback and then defensive, by the (mostly very appropriate) lack of support, but I think has probably seriously reevaluated his thinking. And his offense paled in comparison to these, and your previous stunning remark. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/106 "2013-02-18T07:26:29Z")
> [@MacCat](#): > > It’s a _fun digression_ to you to conflate “ **reeking dreadlocked street vagrants** ” and hoping Shakes teaches his son how to be a successful busker? Why are you still piling on insults? > > He was wrong, they were sharp, he was embarrassed. I think he was looking to maybe ease that here, and was a little taken aback and then defensive, by the (mostly very appropriate) lack of support, but I think has probably seriously reevaluated his thinking. > > And his offense paled in comparison to these, and your previous stunning remark. truly i am history’s greatest monster ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/107 "2013-02-18T07:31:57Z")
> [@colander](#): > > truly i am history’s greatest monster If you really feel that way, pit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/108 "2013-02-18T07:48:21Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Women don’t like catcalls because catcalls are usually safe ways for abusive men to test whether they can further abuse a girl. If you say “hey nice ass” to a girl, and she doesn’t respond, but looks uncomfortable, then you know you can get away with more. If she turns around and says “fuck off,” then you can save face without consequences “hey I was just complimenting you.” It’s all bullshit. And women know it’s bullshit, and react accordingly. I kind of disagree with this perception,. Over time (I’m in my late 20s now) I’ve found that most street and sexual harassment is a]a plea for attention, positive or negative or b]a weird form of male bonding. I went from being the type who yelled back obscenities, gave the finger, or stopped with an ‘\*excuse \*me?’ (depending) to just \*looking \*at them and then looking away as though they are boring and meaningless. Much better results - it stops the harassment immediately, is a much shorter interaction, and they usually look ashamed of themselves anyhow. More attention seems to feed the situation, sometimes taking it to a dangerous level. I’m not above spoiling for a fight when annoying, sexist strangers put their hands on me, though.. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/109 "2013-02-18T12:26:22Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > A friend of mine did something similar. I’d wager he tips the scales at about 300lbs. He was getting on a plane and squeezed past a lady who was putting stuff in the overhead compartment. He didn’t say a word, but IIRC he did put his hands on her hips so he wouldn’t knock her over. When he landed he was put in handcuffs and (to make a long story short) $30,000 later he cleared his name. She filed a civil suit against him for sexual harassment and for reason beyond the scope of this thread he has the sneaking suspicion she was just looking for a payday. > > FTR, the 30K was legal costs, not a settlement. He brought it on himself. You don’t go touching women you don’t even know in a sexually ambiguous way. A tap on the shoulder and a word of warning that he might bump her on the way by? Perfectly OK. Putting his hands on her hips by way of introduction? Well over the line, regardless of intent. Proper approach: “Can I help you get that bag up there?” Or even reach a hand over onto the bag to help steady the bag, if you’ve asked already and you don’t think she heard you. The suitcase won’t care if you grope it. The woman quite understandably will care if it seems like you’re groping _her._ ---
**Author:** ![stolatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stolatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolatt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/110 "2013-02-18T13:13:51Z")
I would laugh if I was called a sexy momma, because it’s so cheesy I could never take it seriously. I would just write it off as a guy dorking around with his son, who isn’t taking it seriously either. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/111 "2013-02-18T13:44:25Z")
> [@](#): > > most street and sexual harassment is a) plea for attention, If that’s what ‘most’ such harassment is then what is the rest? One assumes potentially harmful or worse. And your advise is to ‘just ignore it’, even though by your own admission, it’s only harmless ‘most’, but not all, of the time? So women should ignore potential danger because ‘most of the time’ it’s nothing but ‘male bonding’? I’m glad you’re only responsible for your own risk assessment! ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/112 "2013-02-18T14:15:38Z")
If I’d heard that, I’d have rolled my eyes and kept going, (possibly shooting you a withering look) while mentally classifying you as a classless, clueless oaf. The fact that you were joking that way with your 15 yo son makes it worse. Crass, in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/113 "2013-02-18T14:48:03Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > I kind of disagree with this perception,. Over time (I’m in my late 20s now) I’ve found that most street and sexual harassment is a]a plea for attention, positive or negative or b]a weird form of male bonding. > > I went from being the type who yelled back obscenities, gave the finger, or stopped with an ‘\*excuse \*me?’ (depending) to just \*looking \*at them and then looking away as though they are boring and meaningless. Much better results - it stops the harassment immediately, is a much shorter interaction, and they usually look ashamed of themselves anyhow. More attention seems to feed the situation, sometimes taking it to a dangerous level. > > I’m not above spoiling for a fight when annoying, sexist strangers put their hands on me, though.. Even if sexual harassment is a call for attention, or a form of male bonding, it can still be used as a test of boundaries. Even if it’s not meant to be a test of boundaries, an unanswered catcall makes an abuser feel safe enough to continue his behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/114 "2013-02-18T16:04:09Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I am also unsure of the reasoning behind declaring the woman’s pointed response to be “an overreaction”. In your minds, what _wouldn’t_ have been an overreaction? A smile and curtsy? 😕 Flinging your panties at the guy who catcalled. That would probably be considered okay. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/115 "2013-02-18T18:07:37Z")
> [@MacCat](#): > > If you really feel that way, pit yourself. you’re funny. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/116 "2013-02-18T21:07:30Z")
> [@colander](#): > > A fun digression: where I live, I have never heard catcalls coming from passersby, construction workers or anyone else with a job. The only people who I ever have seen this behavior from are reeking dreadlocked street vagrants, and they always direct it at people who have ignored their requests for cash. They are such delightful cards and kidders! > > What I’m saying here, **Shakes** , is that I hope you’re teaching your son how to play an acoustic, because the busker market is fiercely competitive. This is the second time you’ve expressed yourself inappropriately in this thread, **colander** , and this is a second warning for you to stop behaving like this. A warning is intended to let you know that you’re posting in an unacceptable manner and if you keep doing it, you’ll be banned. That’s the road you’re headed down now. I would advise you to stay out of this thread if you can’t control yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/117 "2013-02-18T21:14:55Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > You shouldn’t say someone is hot unless you’d say it to their face? You people have funny ideas. Making personal comments about someone’s appearance is rude, yes. This is true whether said comment is “You’re a fat whale” or “You’re a hot piece of meat.” This is also true whether the object of your comment can hear you or not. Words like this foster attitudes. What he’s doing here is modeling for his son that it’s okay to objectify women instead of realizing that they are human beings just like him and treating them as such. He’s modeling this regardless whether the women in question could hear him or not. He’s also reinforcing this objectifying attitude in his own mind, which is also true whether the women OR his son could hear him or not. It’s a vicious cycle. He objectifies women in his head, which leads to objectifying them out loud, which reinforces objectifying them in his head. Repeat this cycle long enough, and he may end up with the belief that grabbing a hawt woman’s hips without her consent is a perfectly acceptible thing to do. If his son bears witness to this cycle long enough, he may model it himself. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Touching someone, and for that matter cat calls and other sorts of personal remarks, are a way of testing a stranger’s boundaries. Sometimes the touching is sexual, sometimes the touching seems innocent. But it comes down to a question of how far the toucher or talker can go with a particular person. This, plus: touching a person’s hips is _overtly_ sexual. I’d expect it only from someone I’m very close to, like a boyfriend/girlfriend. I have friends that I wouldn’t take such a touch from. From a stranger? Hell, no. Even with something as innocuous as a handshake, you _wait for consent_ (given in the form of that person accepting your proffered hand) before you touch them. If someone simply grabbed your hand and started pumping, you’d (rightly) think them a classless, clueless idiot. You might even snatch your hand away and say to them “Dude, what the fuck?” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/118 "2013-02-18T21:55:53Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Making personal comments about someone’s appearance is rude, yes. This is true whether said comment is “You’re a fat whale” or “You’re a hot piece of meat.” This is also true whether the object of your comment can hear you or not. > > Words like this foster attitudes. What he’s doing here is modeling for his son that it’s okay to objectify women instead of realizing that they are human beings just like him and treating them as such. He’s modeling this regardless whether the women in question could hear him or not. > > He’s also reinforcing this objectifying attitude in his own mind, which is also true whether the women OR his son could hear him or not. It’s a vicious cycle. He objectifies women in his head, which leads to objectifying them out loud, which reinforces objectifying them in his head. Repeat this cycle long enough, and he may end up with the belief that grabbing a hawt woman’s hips without her consent is a perfectly acceptible thing to do. If his son bears witness to this cycle long enough, he may model it himself. Please don’t take this as an attempt to argue, but as an earnest question: I have a lot of trouble understanding “objectification” rhetoric. Can you please explain how this is “objectification”? It feels like there’s a line between finding someone attractive, and reducing them to being an object whose sole purpose in life should be providing sexual pleasure. I don’t see how Shakes thinking they were hot flung him into the territory of mentally robbing them of personhood. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/119 "2013-02-18T22:40:34Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Making personal comments about someone’s appearance is rude, yes. This is true whether said comment is “You’re a fat whale” or “You’re a hot piece of meat.” This is also true whether the object of your comment can hear you or not. So if I say to my friend, “That guy over there is cute”, that’s rude? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552/120 "2013-02-18T22:53:11Z")
> [@colander](#): > > > [@guizot](#): > > > > Do we even know if he used the term ironically (in a tone recognizable as such)? If he had, would it have made a difference? > > “Ironically”? You mean that actually he was sarcastically implying that the women were, in fact, very unattractive? No, that would also be a problem. That would be sarcasm, yes. A different sort of irony might be gently making fun of the fact that his fourteen-year-old son was pointing out women to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-how-bad-was-this-a-slight-cat-call-i-guess/650552.md?page=7)