# Ladies: Is this romance-novel convention really something you fantasize about? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920 "2007-03-14T18:29:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/61 "2007-03-17T22:06:26Z")
slight hijack [QUOTE=Aangelica] I’ve just finished reading a reasonbly entertaining mystery/cop drama series (recommended by my mother of all people) that’s marketed as romance, and yet the only whiff of romance is that the main character is a) married, b) female, and c) has occasional steamy sex with her husband. [/QUOTE] Eve Dallas? Roarke? ~sigh~ I’d love to have their relationship. Talk about fiction. They are just so damned \*understanding \* of each other! ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/62 "2007-03-17T22:32:38Z")
[QUOTE=LunaV] slight hijack Eve Dallas? Roarke? ~sigh~ I’d love to have their relationship. Talk about fiction. They are just so damned \*understanding \* of each other! [/QUOTE] I love those books. Still waiting on some from the library, since they’re so popular the list is looooong and though I like them, I don’t like them enough to pay the price for hardcovers. ---
**Author:** ![Kinky\_Minx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kinky\_Minx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinky_Minx)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/63 "2007-03-17T23:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’ve noticed a convention in the racier kind of romance novel: The hero has been a highly successful womanizer all his life until meeting the heroine. He has had carnal relations with literally hundreds of women, and has never had a long-term relationship, or at any rate very few. (However, he has never, by modern moral standards, really done a woman wrong – knocked her up, or callously broken her heart – because a romance hero, even a “bad boy,” must be **admirable.)** The heroine is the first woman he has ever cared about enough to make him want to go monogamous. So she can have her cake and eat it. One of the most desirable, desired, and sexually experienced hunks on two legs, and now he’s hers, all hers! Is this something women really fantasize about? And can it ever be a realistic fantasy? ISTM a man with that kind of history before marriage will find fidelity a challenge afterwards, however deeply he loves his wife. If fidelity is important to you, wouldn’t you do better with a guy whose history includes a few long-term relationships and very few one-night stands? [/QUOTE] I’ve never fantasized about it. Not even, let alone tried to knowingly date a guy like this in reality. Sounds like an excellent way to pick up a venereal disease to me. KM ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/64 "2007-03-17T23:57:17Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] This also explains the incredible popularity of the character of Mr. Spock on “Star Trek”. INSANE amounts of fan mail. Almost all from women. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but he wasn’t the philanderer type. He was the aloof, unapproachable type. Very different. I’m not at all drawn to the “hooking up with a wild guy settles him down” motif, but Mr. Spock was my Star Trek boyfriend for many, many years. 😃 Y’all are reminding me of [that poem](http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWAYBEHAV;ttASHGROV1.html) from “The Last Unicorn,” where the protagonist is waiting for a true lady to cure him of his wandering ways. Excerpt: > [@](#): > > When I was a young man, and very well thought of > There was nought I could ask that the ladies denied. > I nibbled their hearts like a handful of raisins, > And I never spoke love, but I knew that I lied. > But I said to myself, “Ah, there’s none of them knows > The secret I shelter, and savor, and save. > I wait for the one who can see through my seeming > And I’ll know when I love by the way I behave”. > > At last came a lady both knowing and tender, > Saying, ‘You’re not at all what they take you to be.’ > I betrayed her before she had quite finished speaking, > And she swallowed cold poison and jumped in the sea. > And I say to myself, when there’s time for a word, > As I gracefully grow more debauched and depraved, > ‘Ah, love may be strong, but a habit is stronger. > And I knew when I loved by the way I behaved.’ (hope I didn’t quote too much…) ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/65 "2007-03-18T13:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=Archergal] Yeah, but he wasn’t the philanderer type. He was the aloof, unapproachable type. Very different. [/QUOTE] Brent Spiner said he got a lot of fan mail too, as Data. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/66 "2007-03-18T21:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=Selkie] I have yet to find my fantasies represented in romantic fiction (any medium, although the novels are usually the furthest from what interests me) and if it’s out there, I’m not sufficiently motivated to expend the time and effort necessary to find it. [/QUOTE] If it’s not too personal a question, **Selkie** – if a romance novel were targeted at you and your fantasies, how would the story go? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/67 "2007-03-18T21:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] This also explains the incredible popularity of the character of Mr. Spock on “Star Trek”. INSANE amounts of fan mail. Almost all from women. [/QUOTE] Because Spock is really a “savage beast” underneath and they wanted to tame him, or because opening up his green, logical heart would be just as great a challenge? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/68 "2007-03-18T21:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=Kinky Minx] I’ve never fantasized about it. Not even, let alone tried to knowingly date a guy like this in reality. Sounds like an excellent way to pick up a venereal disease to me. KM [/QUOTE] Are you sure you’re worthy of your username? 😉 (I know, I know, kinky != promiscuous . . .) ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/69 "2007-03-18T22:27:18Z")
[QUOTE=Selkie] In part because pop culture fascinates me (even the parts I don’t like can often be instructive), in part because I often find “women’s issues” interesting, but mostly because I didn’t want to miss good stuff out of preconceived notions about the genre. [/QUOTE] I read one once that squicked me out. The heroine had been kidnapped and forced to travel with the band of kidnappers, used for sex by all of them throughout their travels. This was of course before her true love rescued her. So the band of baddies shows up at some cottage in the country where the woman who lives there has to feed them etc. The country woman is envious of the heroine, because at least something is happening to her! :eek: ☹ I thought that somehow this represented some bored housewife reader who gets off on these books, even when they include gangbangs, peril, etc. Scary. Luckily that was not a recurring theme. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/70 "2007-03-20T16:37:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Because Spock is really a “savage beast” underneath and they wanted to tame him, or because opening up his green, logical heart would be just as great a challenge? [/QUOTE] Both. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/71 "2007-03-20T17:03:24Z")
What about the most famous case of a woman “taming” a womanizer? Warren Beatty and Annette Bening. I wonder what her secret was. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/72 "2007-03-20T17:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] What about the most famous case of a woman “taming” a womanizer? Warren Beatty and Annette Bening. I wonder what her secret was. [/QUOTE] She got him when he was 55 and his urges had cooled just a bit? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/73 "2007-03-20T19:55:57Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] Brent Spiner said he got a lot of fan mail too, as Data. [/QUOTE] Isaac Asimov also got a lot of female fan reaction for his robot character R. Daneel Olivaw. An awful lot of women have a thing for highly intelligent, emotionless, self controlled men, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/74 "2007-03-20T22:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Isaac Asimov also got a lot of female fan reaction for his robot character R. Daneel Olivaw. An awful lot of women have a thing for highly intelligent, emotionless, self controlled men, it seems. [/QUOTE] An awful lot of women like vibrators, too. Penis-shaped, penis-sized or better, comes with no bullshit attached. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/75 "2007-03-21T00:51:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] If it’s not too personal a question, **Selkie** – if a romance novel were targeted at you and your fantasies, how would the story go? [/QUOTE] Hmmm… good question. Hamsters absolutely loathe me today, so I’ll keep it short. [ul] [li]Light on the discussion of the physical characteristics (both his and hers). Physical relationships between demi-gods bore me to tears. [/li][li]The brain is the sexiest organ, so lots of genuinely witty banter back and forth between the couple. They need not be beautiful, but they darned well better be articulate! … and smart, and educated (whether self or formal, I don’t care).[/li][li]Both parties somewhat unconventional and successful more on their own terms than society’s, but not fringe whack-a-loons either[/li][li]The romance builds slowly and gradually, rather than “I knew the instant we met”[/li][li]… and based largely on those little “I thought I was the only one who read this/did that/felt that way” moments where they recognize their mutual compatibility[/li][li]Neither party was actively seeking a partner, but found one out of circumstances and a gradually building admiration and appreciation of the other[/li][li]Sex recognized as an important part of intimacy, but not the be-all, end-all of it[/li][li]Speaking of sex, I’m all for those “rip the other person’s clothes off” as the next woman, but sometimes it’s those little touches of a hand on the shoulder or a nuzzle on the neck that make one go weak in the knees. Lots of those little moments, please. [/li][li]Let me stress again: equals. Both occupationally successful, both of at least roughly equal financial standing, education, etc. I don’t expect a point for point match, but “rich prince marries housemaid” stories make me grind my teeth. [/li][li]Absolutely no forced sex, babies, broken commitments to other people, giving up of virginity, prostitution, or rescues (financial, physical, or otherwise). Ever.[/li][li]No weddings, or at least no wedding porn. Married couples can be just as romantic as unmarried couples, but I have a deep-seated loathing of traditional white frilly dress weddings and expect my protagonists to feel the same way. I’m also allergic to “Will he or won’t he pop the question” thoughts. If the story needs a gold band to prove they love each other and should be together, it has failed. [/li][/ul] I’m not opposed to historical romances per se, but they usually don’t work because of gender imbalances imposed by the setting. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/76 "2007-03-21T01:23:53Z")
**Selkie** , I was tempted to recommend Jayne Anne Krentz to you, until I reached this item:The romance builds slowly and gradually, rather than “I knew the instant we met” Somehow. I just don’t think you’d be happy with the timelines in either the book I’ve got at present, or the one I read before that. I won’t swear that they meet the rest of your criteria, although I think they meet most, but they darn sure have some element of instant attraction, leading to not quite so instant sex, leading to speedy wedding plans by the end of the book. Not that I was going to spend a lot of time thinking up authors for you to try, just that I’ve got Krentz on the brain today, and . . . Not to speak for all of Krentz’s works, but these two also fail the “equals” things. Rich, powerful males, and women with career and monetary issues. Not Prince and pauper, but more disparity than one might hope for. ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/77 "2007-03-21T01:43:53Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] **Selkie** , I was tempted to recommend Jayne Anne Krentz to you \ Not that I was going to spend a lot of time thinking up authors for you to try, just that I’ve got Krentz on the brain today, and . . . [/QUOTE] Hey, I appreciate any thoughts at all! Of the authors who have been recommended to me before, Jennifer Crusie came the closest to working for me, although overall it was all a little too … light and fluffy, maybe? … for my tastes. I’ve noticed that the romantic relationships I buy into the most tend to occur in other forms of genre fiction, where I think it’s expected that the romance is a byproduct of the main story. These relationships tend not to be fleshed out enough for me to glom onto them as “romances,” but they at least follow the basic patterns I prefer. [A Cup of Light](http://www.amazon.com/Cup-Light-Nicole-Mones/dp/0385319452/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4380097-9367937?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174440927&sr=8-1) is a good example. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/78 "2007-03-21T02:15:51Z")
**Selkie** , do I have the author for you! [Barbara Trapido](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Trapido). I’d never bundle her work into the romance genre, but her books are full of amazing relationships between witty people. I’d recommend _Noah’s Ark_ first as it stands alone (Chapter 20 - in which Camilla determinedly and resolutely seduces Arnie - is my utter favourite piece of writing ever) _Brother of the More Famous Jack_, and its companion novels, share a large cast of awesome characters. They’re not a series, you don’t have to read them in order. Her latest, Frankie and Stankie, is autobiographical, and much less romantic, but still a wonderful read. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/79 "2007-03-21T12:10:24Z")
**Selkie** , Makes sense to me. Some of Nora Roberts more recent books–_Northern Lights_ and _Angels Fall_ (and that other one which I can’t remember the name of, which you probably wouldn’t agree met your criteria because he thinks of her as dream girl from the moment they meet–though they’ve actually “met” a half dozen times before the scene where she moves in next door to him) meet many of your criteria. On the other hand, it occurs to me that given your enjoyment of books where the romance is a byproduct of the main story (and the comment about Crusie), that maybe you just find pure romances to be lacking a little in substance. I can sympathize with that. Despite my general enjoyment of the romance genre, I do sometimes like books like _The Sharing Knife_ by Lois McMaster Bujold because it feels like there is a bit more substance. It’s a fantasy novel, and likely to be labeled that way, but a good case could be made for it belonging in the Romance category. Though I won’t swear that it meets all your criteria. I’ll have to investigate\* A Cup of Light\*, looks like it might appeal to me. **araminty** and also Trapido. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920/80 "2007-03-21T12:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=Kinky Minx] I’ve never fantasized about it. Not even, let alone tried to knowingly date a guy like this in reality. Sounds like an excellent way to pick up a venereal disease to me. KM [/QUOTE] I spent 5 hours on the train last week, so in prevention I bought a couple no-need-to-think books. The second one has turned out to be more of a romance than I thought; I’m having quite some fun looking for all the spots where you can tell the writer is British, for example when she gives Californian prices in pounds 😃 There was a scene where a girl was trying to drag some guy to bed (where I come from, “seduce” implies subtlety) and he, who’s been bedding any woman who came within shotting distance and was willing, says “I don’t like promiscuous women”. So… what do you think you’ve been bedding, nuns? I imagine the intent was to mean “agressive”, but really! I love McMaster Bujold. Will try Trapido. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-is-this-romance-novel-convention-really-something-you-fantasize-about/395920.md?page=5)