# Ladies (primarily): what blind spots to check for as a man whom women value only as a friend? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102 "2010-05-11T21:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/61 "2010-05-12T22:49:54Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > …and the thing is, if you’re both being respectful and behaving like adults, you probably won’t wreck it, anyway. You say you’re interested, she says she’s not, you accept it gracefully – and there’s no reason why you can’t both shrug it off and continue on as before. Sometimes it works in your favor, too. I asked a girl out nearly two years ago, and she turned me down. I got over it, she handled it well, and we ended up becoming closer friends, and that was that as far as I was concerned. I totally dropped any designs on her, but my interest in her back then must have sparked something, because three weeks ago we were at a party, and we ended up in bed together. Strangely, this time round, she was keener than I was… ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/62 "2010-05-13T00:01:40Z")
I agree with you on kissing, however: > [@astro](#): > > Most of the time a woman throwing up a “trust issue” card means they they do not find the man particularly attractive, but they like the male attention they are receiving. If a woman finds a man compelling, interesting and attractive “trust” issues tend to get sorted out very quickly. Or else she has had her trust violated before, which by the time one reaches adulthood, is nearly everyone (regardless of sex). Also, dovetailing with the unwanted attention comments, being alone in a room with someone untrustworthy can be dangerous for a woman, moreso than it is for a man. (Guys seem to forget this somewhat often.) Sure, some people are pretty casual about trust. However, some people are not. I’m willing to bet you missed out on a number of wonderful people just because you were impatient. In my experience, people who take trust seriously, also take loyalty seriously. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/63 "2010-05-13T01:52:46Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > This is a bit of an alien concept to me - is being shot down really a concern to _women_? Dude are you seriously asking this? Are you actually not aware that “women” are not some mythical creature but real genuine human beings with fears and insecurities? Kinda, you know, _exactly like you_. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/64 "2010-05-13T02:27:58Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > I agree with you on kissing, however: > > Or else she has had her trust violated before, which by the time one reaches adulthood, is nearly everyone (regardless of sex). Also, dovetailing with the unwanted attention comments, being alone in a room with someone untrustworthy can be dangerous for a woman, moreso than it is for a man. (Guys seem to forget this somewhat often.) > > Sure, some people are pretty casual about trust. However, some people are not. > > I’m willing to bet you missed out on a number of wonderful people just because you were impatient. In my experience, people who take trust seriously, also take loyalty seriously. > > YMMV. Possibly, but from my perspective I’m talking in the context of mature adults, usually middle class professionals an/or reasonably well educated people dating each other. These are generally men with a lot to lose if they do something really stupid like date raping a woman. If I’m dating a woman who has trust issues because someone assaulted her, took her money, broke her heart, left her for another person etc. I feel for her, but that’s not where I am, and I’m really not willing to climb that razor wire fence. I feel this way because most women take stock of me fairly quickly and realize that, regardless of their attraction (or lack thereof) toward me, that I am a solid citizen. For better or worse there’s only so many pushups I’m willing to do at my age to convince a woman I can be trusted. Beyond this, I’ve found that the all important “trust” issue magically seems to disappear if a woman finds a guy who makes her panties moist. Apparently their vagina can trust him even if their brain cannot. Through hard experience I’ve found there really is no truly satisfying a person who insists they can’t trust because of past trust violations, or just because, for whatever reason, they say they find it hard to trust people. There is no level of effort (again in my experience) you can exert to get to the magical trusted place as the goal keeps receding into the distance, and ultimately this game is insulting and exhausting, and just not worth it. A mature women can obviously make her own decisions about her sexuality and whom she wishes to share it with, but I’m not running an extensive gauntlet. I’m just a guy. If a woman can’t figure me out to her comfort and satisfaction in a few dates I don’t need the drama. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/65 "2010-05-13T02:28:21Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > What exactly do you mean by this? Sure, I’ll probably kiss a guy I’m interested in within that timeframe, but no way in hell would I get naked with him in such a short amount of time. I need to know you to trust you, and I need to trust you to sleep with you. Trust comes from seeing someone behave consistently over a period of time; that ain’t happening in just 4 dates. > > …and the thing is, if you’re both being respectful and behaving like adults, you probably won’t wreck it, anyway. You say you’re interested, she says she’s not, you accept it gracefully – and there’s no reason why you can’t both shrug it off and continue on as before. (And if, for whatever reason, she can’t/won’t act like an adult about it, she probably isn’t good friend material anyway.) > > Of course “accepting it gracefully” is also a key point here. I’ve been on both sides of this, and remaining friends was not, in fact, all that difficult – except for the time the guy basically freaked out about it (alternately “okay with it”, clingy, and despising me by turns – we haven’t spoken since). Yet I’m still friends with another guy who turned me down when I asked him out, some 10-odd years later. along these lines, one thing that might cause me to move a guy into the friend zone would be thinking he might not take a breakup well in the end. If I accept a date and we see each other for a while and it doesn’t work out, are we going to be able to move into a friendship from there? Sometimes even with an initial attraction things fizzle out after a few dates. If he seems like the kind of guy who rarely or never gets a date (except for me) well, that’s a lot of pressure. Is he going to become a big sad sack if we break up after a short time? If I got the feeling that I was his one big chance at female companionship I’d run for the hills for sure. I think it would be smart to let a woman know right off the bat that you’re interested in something romantic, but it’s also a good idea to take things slowly. The goal on the first date shouldn’t be falling madly in love, it should be figuring out if you’re both interested in a second date. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/66 "2010-05-13T02:43:41Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > This is a bit of an alien concept to me - is being shot down really a concern to _women_? I ask because I have several times I have sat with women (friends or in one case sisters to each other) who complained about unwanted attention or ridiculed someone’s interest (I cringed inwardly), but OTOH I have never heard from men (even from the worst braggards) about unwelcome interest from women. From my small sample women but not men seem to resent it. God, yes. Because our culture pushes the idea that men are always up for sex, if a woman offers herself in a romantic/sexual overture and gets turned down, then she must be the most loathesome, horrific, unfeminine creature ever cursed to trudge the face of the Earth. And men - well, all people - specifically resent interest shown by someone whose sum of status (looks, figure, money, et cetera) isn’t close enough to their own. A man who dates a woman significantly heavier than him is seen as extremely low status. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/67 "2010-05-13T03:00:10Z")
**tschild** - I’m going to jump in with a bit of a different take on this. There’s no other way for me to put this - if you talk like you write your posts, I can understand why it’s not working out. You’re verbal style here is - well, stylized, elevated, it comes off as an affectation. A little too precise and measured for normal life. To a listener it sounds like some insecurity is under there. I can imagine one of your dates telling a friend, “Oh he’s nice, and all, but he’s…different.” Try dropping it down a notch, more regular sounding. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/68 "2010-05-13T04:08:53Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > But then some women, like me, think it’s creepy to touch me on the first date. Or maybe I’m just a freak. Either way, there’s lots of ways to signal your interest besides pawing. I don’t think it’s right to call putting your arm around somebody 'pawing." Irrespective of what I think about what you said, I think the OP needs to do a little of the arm thing. You are a rarity, I believe, and the majority of women, if they think of a guy in a dating mode, will not object. Have we heard back from OP yet? Best wishes, hh ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/69 "2010-05-13T04:59:58Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > **tschild** - I’m going to jump in with a bit of a different take on this. > > There’s no other way for me to put this - if you talk like you write your posts, I can understand why it’s not working out. You’re verbal style here is - well, stylized, elevated, it comes off as an affectation. A little too precise and measured for normal life. To a listener it sounds like some insecurity is under there. I can imagine one of your dates telling a friend, “Oh he’s nice, and all, but he’s…different.” > > Try dropping it down a notch, more regular sounding. IIRC, he’s German and English isn’t his first language, so that might be what you’re noticing. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/70 "2010-05-13T05:25:11Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > If you get creeped-out responses, you know you’ve gone too far. I disagree. It means you’re on the right track. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/71 "2010-05-13T05:32:06Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I disagree. It means you’re on the right track. Well, obviously there are degrees. If you tease a girl and she says ‘stop that’ or ‘eww, that’s dirty,’ then you might be fine. You’ll know it when you’ve seriously gone into the creepy zone, and whatever you may think, I don’t think it can be a good thing. Unless the girl is into that sorta thing… but then it’s not creepy anymore, and we come full circle. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/72 "2010-05-13T05:43:33Z")
Uh, I think **Melon** likes it in the creepy zone. Uh, that sounds really dirty. Uh uh uh. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/73 "2010-05-13T05:49:17Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > This is a bit of an alien concept to me - is being shot down really a concern to _women_? I ask because I have several times I have sat with women (friends or in one case sisters to each other) who complained about unwanted attention or ridiculed someone’s interest (I cringed inwardly), but OTOH I have never heard from men (even from the worst braggards) about unwelcome interest from women. From my small sample women but not men seem to resent it. Of course women fear rejection- we are people, too. Indeed, I think rejection is harder for women to face, since there is this meme that any man will sleep with any willing woman unless she is hideously deformed. The times I’ve basically asked for sex and have been shot down cut pretty bad- you don’t just think “eh, maybe I’m not his type” but rather “Oh god, I must be horrifically repulsive.” And yeah, men will complain readily if someone they find unattractive is all over them. Women: capable of having emotions- just like men! ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/74 "2010-05-13T06:04:07Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > This is a bit of an alien concept to me - is being shot down really a concern to _women_? I ask because I have several times I have sat with women (friends or in one case sisters to each other) who complained about unwanted attention or ridiculed someone’s interest (I cringed inwardly), but OTOH I have never heard from men (even from the worst braggards) about unwelcome interest from women. From my small sample women but not men seem to resent it. If this is representative, it could mean one of two things (or both): a) Men never/seldom consider attention to be unwanted b) When men get unwanted attention, they never/seldom complain about it. It seems it’s B. People can still dislike the idea of being shot down even if no one else hears about it. BTW: WHen those women talked about the unwanted attention or ridiculed his interest, what did they say? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/75 "2010-05-13T06:09:26Z")
Of course women fear rejection. They just don’t have to experience it. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/76 "2010-05-13T11:33:48Z")
Here’s a hint. For some women (i.e. me, but I haven’t taken a poll among other women), holding her hand is more romantic than putting an arm around her. As long as it’s not done in overtly sexual or suggestive way, it’s a really non-creepy way of indicating interest in a woman as a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Creole\_Tomato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Creole\_Tomato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creole_Tomato)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/77 "2010-05-13T12:56:34Z")
If you aren’t sure if she’s interested in you, yeah I think putting your arm around her is too much. You’re way up in her space and basically pulling her into yours. Hand holding is better. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/78 "2010-05-13T13:30:04Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > BTW today a female colleague jocularly alleged my being gay - WTF? Have you ever mad a sexual advance toward a woman? This includes taking their hand, attempting to kiss, etc. Based upon how you describe yourself and how women interact with you…answer is no. And even if you have done it once or twice, I would guess is that you don’t do it often, especially with women that you are attracted to because you fear rejection. It’s like any type of contract negotiation, if you don’t ask for it (making those types of moves is “asking for it”) you won’t get it. Unless some woman finds you extremely attractive and is willing to make the first move. While this could happen, it is not the norm in our culture, where most women wait for the man to make the first move. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/79 "2010-05-13T14:01:03Z")
> [@Creole\_Tomato](#): > > If you aren’t sure if she’s interested in you, yeah I think putting your arm around her is too much. You’re way up in her space and basically pulling her into yours. Hand holding is better. Better yet is just to see how she responds to touch. If you hand her something and you touch, does she pull back. If you touch her shoulder, does she flinch or smile? If you help her on with her coat…? Back in the day, you’d walk over to her car door, and give her your hand to help you out of the car. That was the perfect sort of thing to figure out if the parties felt any chemistry. Does she touch you? If you hand her something, do your hands touch, or does she make sure there is no contact? When she is getting your attention, does she say your name, or say your name and touch you on the shoulder? If she doesn’t touch you, that’s a hint. (If she touches you, she might just be touchy). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102/80 "2010-05-13T14:15:14Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Better yet is just to see how she responds to touch. If you hand her something and you touch, does she pull back. If you touch her shoulder, does she flinch or smile? If you help her on with her coat…? > > Back in the day, you’d walk over to her car door, and give her your hand to help you out of the car. That was the perfect sort of thing to figure out if the parties felt any chemistry. > > Does she touch you? If you hand her something, do your hands touch, or does she make sure there is no contact? When she is getting your attention, does she say your name, or say your name and touch you on the shoulder? If she doesn’t touch you, that’s a hint. (If she touches you, she might just be touchy). Yup, non-creepy flirting is ideally a matter of _feedback_. From the guy’s perspective … Start with eye contact, then move a bit close; then move on to touching in a non-threatening manner - but (and this is the vital step) _pay attention to her reactions_ each step of the way! You only ‘escalate’ if she seems to be encouraging you to do so! By the time you are ready to hold hands, or kiss, it ought to be obvious to both of you that this is what she wants you to do … Again, flirting is a sort of communication. It should be two-way. If you are having a “conversation” with yourself, it isn’t going well, any more than any other sort of conversation - and that of course (and here is where guys very typically screw up) means that you must “listen” as much as “speak” - i.e., you must be responding to her, as well as initiating. Unfortunately, in our society it is the case that social norms require men to ‘start’ the conversation as it were. Guys, I guarantee that if you are actually "listening’ to a woman, and move on to touching and kissing when she makes it clear that she wants you to - you will not be seen as “creepy” by her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-primarily-what-blind-spots-to-check-for-as-a-man-whom-women-value-only-as-a-friend/539102.md?page=5)