# Ladies withdrawing after dinner leaving gents to their port and cigars **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 4, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692 "2019-09-04T16:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/21 "2019-09-05T14:55:38Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Today we go out on the patio to burn one and down a few beers while the girls do the dishes. How is that any different. I imagine back then, the women socialized with each other while the maids did the dishes. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/22 "2019-09-05T14:59:55Z")
IME on three different continents, most social gathering, unless very close family and friend tend to segregate into a male and female section. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/23 "2019-09-05T15:11:31Z")
Also a vote here for specific social class. You need a fairly large house to have both a formal dining table for more than say, 8 dinner guests - then a separate comfortable room for both groups afterwards. In a common suburban home, it’s more likely to be barbeque on the patio then the inside and outside groups. I don’t know about you, but my not small living room is only set up for about 6 or 7 people crowded onto the sofas. The rec room - out of the way - less. OTOH, a fellow I knew who worked in Saudi Arabia described a set of folding doors across the living room to hide the dining room. He could hear shuffling, then a little bell rang, and the men folded back the doors to reveal a fully set table. When they were done, they left and closed the doors and he could hear the table being cleared. he never saw his host’s family women. But then, being Saudi Arabia, no port or brandy was served. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/24 "2019-09-05T17:47:13Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Today we go out on the patio to burn one and down a few beers while the girls do the dishes. How is that any different. > [@AK84](#): > > IME on three different continents, most social gathering, unless very close family and friend tend to segregate into a male and female section. I guess it depends on who you hang out with. I’ve seen this, but only rarely. (And “while the girls do the dishes”? Are they all in their teens or younger?) When my parents gave parties, clear back into the 1950’s, my mother and I and/or my sisters might well be the ones doing the cleaning up; but female guests, like the male ones, stayed in the living room, though they were more likely to offer to help. By the time it was my generation giving the parties, the men helped with the cleanup. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/25 "2019-09-05T18:06:14Z")
The other purpose was that the ladies didnt smoke and gentlemen didnt smoke around ladies. This also prevented the ladies expensive dresses from getting smelly. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/26 "2019-09-05T18:16:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The other purpose was that the ladies didnt smoke and gentlemen didnt smoke around ladies. > > This also prevented the ladies expensive dresses from getting smelly. Smoking in gathering is one thing that has really become unacceptable. Even in the 1990’s, my parents used to have ashtrays (neither smoked, at least not in front of us) in our living rooms…they pretty much disappeared by the 2000’s. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I guess it depends on who you hang out with. I’ve seen this, but only rarely. (And “while the girls do the dishes”? Are they all in their teens or younger?) > > When my parents gave parties, clear back into the 1950’s, my mother and I and/or my sisters might well be the ones doing the cleaning up; but female guests, like the male ones, stayed in the living room, though they were more likely to offer to help. By the time it was my generation giving the parties, the men helped with the cleanup. Which more or less correlates with gatherings I saw, with the exception I was alwasy expected to help clean up, despite being male. I am guessing maybe “segregated” is too strong a worth, lets say clusters would form in the party, typically predominantly of one gender, although mixing was pretty common. My father was in the Army and at formal dinners at his regimental mess, when the ladies were present, the" old ways" were followed, the ladies retired to the sitting rooms after dinner while the officers sat in for a while,before joing them. They abandoned it after women started getting commissioned. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/27 "2019-09-05T18:21:56Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > According to an episode of **The Supersizers….** in 17th century England urinals were placed _in the dinning room_ for the convenience of male guests after dinner, hence why ladies would withdraw to another room after the meal. Not urinals in the modern sense, like what you’d find in a mens’ room, but chamber pots. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/28 "2019-09-05T18:25:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The other purpose was that the ladies didnt smoke and gentlemen didnt smoke around ladies. > > This also prevented the ladies expensive dresses from getting smelly. Naturally. Onceuponatime, gentlemen and ladies were different species. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/29 "2019-09-05T19:54:11Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Also a vote here for specific social class. You need a fairly large house to have both a formal dining table for more than say, 8 dinner guests - then a separate comfortable room for both groups afterwards. In a common suburban home, it’s more likely to be barbeque on the patio then the inside and outside groups. I don’t know about you, but my not small living room is only set up for about 6 or 7 people crowded onto the sofas. The rec room - out of the way - less. > > OTOH, a fellow I knew who worked in Saudi Arabia described a set of folding doors across the living room to hide the dining room. He could hear shuffling, then a little bell rang, and the men folded back the doors to reveal a fully set table. When they were done, they left and closed the doors and he could hear the table being cleared. he never saw his host’s family women. But then, being Saudi Arabia, no port or brandy was served. Victorian- and Edwardian-era houses tended to have more and smaller roomsThe custom of men and women separating after dinner ended died out gradually, starting with the end of the Edwardian era. The tradition was long gone by the time suburbia sprang into being post-WWII. I’m not convinced it was a small sliver of society that practiced this, either. It’s easy to get that impression from books and movies, but standards were different then. Few households were Downton Abbey, but most tried for some measure of gentility and gracious living. Even middle class households typically had at least one servant. (Wages for domestic workers were abysmal, so servants were more affordable.) As I understand it, politics and business were considered inappropriate for dinner table conversation. No hostess wanted tempers flaring over the scalloped oysters or galantine of veal, and business and politics were considered too dirty and complex for women to worry their pretty little heads about. Yet many a dinner party sealed a business deal or launched a political career–after dinner, away from the ladies. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/30 "2019-09-05T19:58:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Naturally. Onceuponatime, gentlemen and ladies were different species. \ It was yesterday. At Biltmore. \ (Man, I hope that ad campaign is national.) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/31 "2019-09-05T21:01:18Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m 63 and I can remember in my 20’s and 30’s being invited to parties where all the guys and gals would gather in separate rooms. I hated it. I always had more fun with a mixed crowd. I always rate parties at the beginning: if the crowd gathers divided by gender, it’s gonna be boring. If all the folks mingle, it’s gonna be fun. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/32 "2019-09-06T12:59:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Which more or less correlates with gatherings I saw, with the exception I was alwasy expected to help clean up, despite being male. I didn’t have any brothers. One summer we did have a couple of male cousins spend the summer with us (they and I were all between around 11 and 15). At first, I was expected to help clean up after meals and they weren’t. I complained to my mother that this wasn’t fair; she agreed with me, and for the rest of the summer they had to take their turn at it also. This was in the early 1960’s. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/33 "2019-09-07T00:14:11Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > …and there are hundreds of 19th century (European) novels where this happens, at least. As noted above, they represent a very specific social class. Which specific novels did you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/34 "2019-09-07T16:46:44Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Which specific novels did you have in mind? If you’re talking about novels involving upper middle class people and above written or set between 1800 and 1930, it might be easier to list the ones where it doesn’t happen. Off the top of my head I would say it’s directly mentioned in ‘The Tenant of Wildfell Hall’ and several of Anthony Powell’s books. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/35 "2019-09-07T16:58:39Z")
I see more natural segregation because the women and men talk about different things. At least some of the time. So conversations and minglings eb and flo so like a couple of women give each other a look and walk away to talk privately. The men might mention something about say a car or their latest woodworking project or something wrong with plumbing and they go and check on that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/36 "2019-09-07T17:03:03Z")
Regarding old novels, the tradition of ladies withdrawing is invariably taken as read. If it says ‘over port, he told us that…’ then you can assume that there were only men in the room. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/37 "2019-09-07T18:26:44Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > Regarding old novels, the tradition of ladies withdrawing is invariably taken as read. If it says ‘over port, he told us that…’ then you can assume that there were only men in the room. Yes. It’s often used as a convention for advancing the plot in a particular way along sexual divisions, such as the beginning of Chapter 11 in _Pride and Prejudice_: > [@Jane Austen--Pride and Prejudice:](#): > > When the ladies removed after dinner, Elizabeth ran up to her sister, and seeing her well guarded from cold, attended her into the drawing-room, where she was welcomed by her two friends with many professions of pleasure; and Elizabeth had never seen them so agreeable as they were during the hour which passed before the gentlemen appeared. Their powers of conversation were considerable. They could describe an entertainment with accuracy, relate an anecdote with humour, and laugh at their acquaintance with spirit. > > But when the gentlemen entered, Jane was no longer the first object; Miss Bingley’s eyes were instantly turned toward Darcy, and she had something to say to him before he had advanced many steps. He addressed himself directly to Miss Bennet, with a polite congratulation; Mr. Hurst also made her a slight bow, and said he was “very glad;” but diffuseness and warmth remained for Bingley’s salutation. He was full of joy and attention. The first half hour was spent in piling up the fire, lest she should suffer from the change of room; and she removed at his desire to the other side of the fireplace, that she might be further from the door. He then sat down by her, and talked scarcely to anyone else. Elizabeth, at work in the opposite corner, saw it all with great delight. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/38 "2019-09-07T19:07:30Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I guess it depends on who you hang out with. I’ve seen this, but only rarely. (And “while the girls do the dishes”? Are they all in their teens or younger?) > > When my parents gave parties, clear back into the 1950’s, my mother and I and/or my sisters might well be the ones doing the cleaning up; but female guests, like the male ones, stayed in the living room, though they were more likely to offer to help. By the time it was my generation giving the parties, the men helped with the cleanup. This is my experience, too. At my grandmother’s house, the maid did the dishes and the rest of us gathered in the living room. Same at my aunt’s house. At my aunt’s house, the hired-for-the-night staff did the dishes, and the adults gathered in one part of the house and the children elsewhere. At my mom’s house, she and my father did the dishes, while everyone hung out around the table, and then everyone moved to the family room or the living room, depending on the size of the party At my house, my husband usually does the dishes, although I also do some of it, and some of the guests help out. If it’s a small party, everyone hangs out in the kitchen and talks with the people doing dishes. If it’s a larger party, people disperse by interests. (which tend not to correlate with sex.) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/39 "2019-09-07T20:30:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I see more natural segregation because the women and men talk about different things. At least some of the time. So conversations and minglings eb and flo so like a couple of women give each other a look and walk away to talk privately. The men might mention something about say a car or their latest woodworking project or something wrong with plumbing and they go and check on that. Again, I think that depends on who you hang out with. I haven’t noticed any gender difference in who’s interested in plumbing, and among my friends the biggest car nut is female. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692/40 "2019-09-07T21:04:56Z")
BTW, I’ve tried hard liquor like brandy and scotch and I personally find the taste nasty. Dont know what port tastes like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-withdrawing-after-dinner-leaving-gents-to-their-port-and-cigars/839692.md?page=3)