# Ladies, would you die for a man you loved? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 13, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499 "2015-10-13T00:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/21 "2015-10-13T13:38:00Z")
> [@TheSpeculationElucidation](#): > > Men are taught from a young age to be self-sacrificing to women. We measure a man’s worthiness by how useful he is to society or women. The best thing a man can do is save a woman. Men are raised to internalize their disposability. And at the same time our society raises women to think they’re overly emotional and seek comfort so that they are ABLE to accept that position in the lifeboat, because they are a woman and are entitled to such specifically because of their imagined vulnerability and importance for the survival of the human race. > > Men dying in a village did not have the terrible repercussions as much as women. One man can father many children. One woman can only birth one (or few) child every 9 months. Who gets to eat first if there isn’t any food? The women. Who gets the spot on the lifeboat? The women. Who gets saved from a burning building first? The women. The male-dominated jobs are the ones that include danger: the military, coal mines, felling trees, mills, operating heavy machinery… Men are unpaid bodyguards for women and children - or are at least expected to be so. Not protecting women is one of the highest forms of shame a man can achieve. You are describing a fantasy which may have applied to a very limited circle of women – white, upper middle class ones. Most of what you said is not true globally. More women die as a result of childbirth+occupational injuries than men from occupational injuries. When there is a shortage of food, women are more often undernourished ([60% of the world’s hungry are female](http://thp.org/knowledge-center/know-your-world-facts-about-hunger-poverty/)). Throughout most of the world and most of history, women are thought of as resilient to mistreatment, capable of hard agricultural labor, or simply disposable. For example, over 70% of adult asylum seekers in the EU in 2014 are male ([cite](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics)). That means family resources disproportionately went into sponsoring men’s departure seeking a better life. Women and children are left behind to starve. This scenario has played out repeatedly in regions of unrest, war, famine, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TheSpeculationElucidation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@TheSpeculationElucidation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSpeculationElucidation)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/22 "2015-10-13T13:40:10Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > You are describing a fantasy which may have applied to a very limited circle of women – white, upper middle class ones. Most of what you said is not true globally. More women die as a result of childbirth+occupational injuries than men from occupational injuries. When there is a shortage of food, women are more often undernourished ([60% of the world’s hungry are female](http://thp.org/knowledge-center/know-your-world-facts-about-hunger-poverty/)). Throughout most of the world and most of history, women are thought of as resilient to mistreatment, capable of hard agricultural labor, or simply disposable. For example, over 70% of adult asylum seekers in the EU in 2014 are male ([cite](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics)). That means family resources disproportionately went into sponsoring men’s departure seeking a better life. Women and children are left behind to starve. This scenario has played out repeatedly in regions of unrest, war, famine, etc. Absolutely fascinating. I’ll have to look into this more. As a white female, I understand that my opinion is biased, even if unintentionally so. Thank you for the links. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/23 "2015-10-13T13:56:00Z")
> [@TheSpeculationElucidation](#): > > We measure a man’s worthiness by how useful he is to society or women. I would say that we measure a man’s worthiness by how useful he is to society. We measure a woman’s worthiness by how useful she is to men. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/24 "2015-10-13T13:56:36Z")
Yes. It has nothing to do with gender roles. (I don’t favor “women first,” for that matter, although I’ll give grudging precedence to children. Cute little buggers are wired to engender sympathy from adults.) It has to do with the fact that I love him so much, I’m really not sure I’d want to continue living without him. No melodrama, just fact. If I could contrive some mechanism short of straight out suicide to predecease him, I’d do it. It’s completely selfish, and he wouldn’t thank me for it at all, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/25 "2015-10-13T14:05:12Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > For example, over 70% of adult asylum seekers in the EU in 2014 are male ([cite](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics)). That means family resources disproportionately went into sponsoring men’s departure seeking a better life. Women and children are left behind to starve. Does it not rather mean that men are being forced out as being surplus to requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/26 "2015-10-13T16:18:35Z")
I’d die for my son. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/27 "2015-10-13T17:36:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? We have the Birkenhead Drill aka ‘Women and children first’. And if you plug ‘men who died defending women’ into your favourite search engine you’ll get plenty of hits from this year alone. So actually, when actual push comes to actual shove, yes we men do mean it. Not always, but often enough. The Birkenhead drill is not a good example, because actually [women and children die to a much larger extent than men in maritime disasters.](http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/titanic-women-children-120413.htm) > [@](#): > > Elinder and colleague Oscar Erixson analyzed a database of 18 peace-time shipwrecks over the period 1852 – 2011 in a new study into survival advantages at sea disasters. > > Looking at the fate of over 15,000 people of more than 30 nationalities, the researchers found that more women and children die than men in maritime disasters, while captains and crew have a greater chance of survival than any passengers. > > Being a woman was an advantage on only two ships: on the Birkenhead in 1852 and on the Titanic in 1912. I don’t know who sacrifices more often for who overall, but ‘Women and children first’ is a chivalrous idea that’s not always followed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/28 "2015-10-13T21:38:50Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > The Birkenhead drill is not a good example, because actually [women and children die to a much larger extent than men in maritime disasters.](http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/titanic-women-children-120413.htm) The point is that they are _given the opportunity_ to preferentially survive, not that they actually do. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/29 "2015-10-13T21:43:32Z")
Women put huge resources into each child, relative or absolute, emotional, energy, strength, life expectancy. They only get so many chances to fulfill the genetic imperative. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/30 "2015-10-13T22:16:32Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > For example, over 70% of adult asylum seekers in the EU in 2014 are male ([cite](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics)). There’s something I’ve just remembered: at least in regards to the UK, those who are allowed residence are allowed to bring in dependants. So it makes sense for the (disposable) men to take the risk while the women remain relatively safe. ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/31 "2015-10-13T23:58:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There’s something I’ve just remembered: at least in regards to the UK, those who are allowed residence are allowed to bring in dependants. So it makes sense for the (disposable) men to take the risk while the women remain relatively safe. The countries they are fleeing are experiencing war or famine. How are women safe? Whenever there is a region of severe economic depression, war, or famine, the men – who tend to be physically stronger and less likely to be responsible for small children – leave. Sometimes the men, once settled and thriving, bring the women they left behind. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they die in the process. [This report](http://kms1.isn.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Files/ISN/109997/ipublicationdocument_singledocument/51a1ed80-50ea-415d-8f67-9da272a35f74/en/Armed+Conflict+Deaths+Disaggregated+by+Gender.pdf) describes various studies showing that men and women die due to armed conflicts in different time frames and for different reasons, but ultimately at similar rates. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/32 "2015-10-14T06:38:30Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > The countries they are fleeing are experiencing war or famine. How are women safe? They’re not coming from war or famine countries. They’re coming from camps in Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon. And the reason it’s mostly men is that it’s too dangerous for women who have other additional concerns to worry about (rape, being sold into prostitution, etc), also its physical taxing. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/33 "2015-10-14T13:22:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The point is that they are _given the opportunity_ to preferentially survive, not that they actually do. Are they given the opportunity? From my link: > [@](#): > > Indeed, the “women and children first” order was given for only five times out of 18 sinkings. It’s not that every ship followed “women and children first” and for some unfortunate reason women and children still died in higher numbers. It’s that “women and children first” wasn’t actually followed in most instances. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/34 "2015-10-14T15:44:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Are they given the opportunity? From my link I really don’t think that looking only at 18 sinkings represents a decent sample. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/35 "2015-10-14T18:24:43Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/36 "2015-10-14T18:45:47Z")
I’m certain my wife wouldn’t. Hell, she wouldn’t even save my ass over the kids she watches! It’s a question I asked of her playfully once: “Ok, we’re on a boat with T and J”. “Why?” “We’re on vacation, and we’re on a lake on a boat” “No. I don’t like boats.” “Can you just go long with this. It’s hypothetical.” “If it’s hypothetical it’s pointless” “No, I just want to see how much you love me” “Well, alright. I guess I do love you enough to go out on a boat with you. But only once” “Well, that’s not not the whole… ok… so’were on a boat with T an J and we all fall overboard” “THAT’s why I don’t like boats!” “Well, yeah, ok, so we’re overboard, who do you save first?” “What do you mean? You can swim! I’ll get T and J back in the boat.” “ok… uhm we’re actually tied up” “Why?” “I don’t know, woman! We just are! Now who you gonna rescue?” “All of you.” “No, there’s no time, you have to pick someone” ::no hesitation:: “T and J”. “WHAT?!” “They never would have made me go on a boat.” So seriously, I would rather she not. I would give my life up for our son in a heartbeat, and he needs her. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/37 "2015-10-16T00:03:07Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > That means family resources disproportionately went into sponsoring men’s departure seeking a better life. Women and children are left behind to starve. This scenario has played out repeatedly in regions of unrest, war, famine, etc. NO, this means that the men have gone on ahead to the Land of Opportunity (i.e., a Land where there are more Opportunities-not a lot of job openings in Herza and Govina, I suspect; do you have any input on new Syrian job openongs???) to WORK like a slave and bring his loved ones (Women and Children) over. Never occurred to you, did it? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/38 "2015-10-17T02:35:08Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > [This report](http://kms1.isn.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Files/ISN/109997/ipublicationdocument_singledocument/51a1ed80-50ea-415d-8f67-9da272a35f74/en/Armed+Conflict+Deaths+Disaggregated+by+Gender.pdf) describes various studies showing that men and women die due to armed conflicts in different time frames and for different reasons, but ultimately at similar rates. From the third page of that report: > [@](#): > > The research we have explored uses different datasets and investigates different conflicts and time periods, so it is difficult to say whether more men or women die overall from conflict. One general conclusion can however be drawn: men are more likely to die during conflicts, whereas women die more often of indirect causes after the conflict is over. Data on violent deaths (mostly survey data) confirm that men are more often victims of violence during wartime, whereas several studies that also take into consideration the post conflict period report a high number of female deaths after the conflict is officially over. So, no, women don’t die more often in conflicts; men do. Women die more often _after_ conflicts. Probably because many of the men are already dead and can’t die again. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/39 "2015-10-17T02:56:20Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > “WHAT?!” > > “They never would have made me go on a boat.” 😃 I like this person. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499/40 "2015-10-17T12:41:37Z")
Here are two historical examples: [Christian Davies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Davies) pretended to be a man and fought in the army for years and tears so she could look for her lost husband. Her life story is so crazy and melodramatic it should be a movie. They’d have to tone it down to make it more believable. When she learned her husband died on the Eastern Front, [Mariya Oktyabrskaya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariya_Oktyabrskaya) sold all her possessions, bought a tank, named it “the fighting girlfriend,” and signed up to kill as many Nazis as she could. She won the Hero of the Soviet Union medal in the process. She died while repairing her tank in the field. That should count for something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-would-you-die-for-a-man-you-loved/734499.md?page=1)