# Ladies, you are just too stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260 "2017-01-26T21:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/81 "2017-01-27T15:47:23Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Perhaps someone can explain to me how denying women free access to reproductive health services and contraception is not calling them stupid? I’ll take “Reinforcing Ownership of the Means of Reproduction” for $1000, Alex ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/82 "2017-01-27T16:44:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m beginning to develop Bricker’s Law: _In SDMB debate, any post that begins, “So what you’re saying is…” (or similar words) is virtually certain to mischaracterize the argument to which it is responding._ > > Thank you for the data point. > > The answer to your post is: no, that’s not the reason. I imagine more women are opposed to limits on abortion than are men because their self-interest is implicated and because they are thus more disposed to accept the claim that the fetus is merely tissue, not a human being. But plenty of women are pro-life; the March for Life is tomorrow and you have only to watch the marchers to see that this is true. There are ten speakers scheduled for the event and four are women. > > And of course self-interest aside, undoubtedly many women simply believe in the arguments outlined above: that it’s morally unacceptable to force a person to invade the body of another. > > As do many men. > > In other words, people of good faith can reach conclusions without animus towards women, or without preferential bias towards women. OK I admit I was too heavy on the snark in that post, but i figured we were in the pit what the hell. That said the difference in abortion support does illustrate the OPs point that those who do not have to suffer the consequences of an abortion ban call more readily for restrictions to be placed on others that they would be against if they had to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/83 "2017-01-27T17:57:00Z")
If you (general you) wish to believe that a fertilized egg is the same thing as a human, despite the science that shows it isn’t, that’s your problem. However, you simply have no legal or moral right to force that opinion off on other people. Particularly those whose lives would be severely affected by an unwanted pregnancy. Those of you (general you) who think that women only get pregnant thru choices they have made, well I’m not sure I can address that level of stupid. Birth control fails, rape happens, and pregnancy can be the result. For those of you that think sex is only for conception, again no legal or moral right to force that on others. The bottom line on this is that abortion isn’t murder because a fetus isn’t a human. It’s simply a biological fact. To those folks who wish to believe that a fetus is the same thing as a real living breathing human - just don’t get an abortion. Anything else? None of your business. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/84 "2017-01-27T17:59:36Z")
The issue isn’t that Planned Parenthood doesn’t help with abortions. It is that no federal or state money goes towards that. It goes towards women’s health. But the plan is to defund Planned Parenthood. They want to destroy women’s health to make it where donated money has to be stretched further and hope it will be enough to shut them down. So women’s health doesn’t matter as long as you can shut down abortion. That’s not surprising, since, for 80% of white evangelicals and 60% of White Catcholics and around 50% of all “Christians,” it was okay to elect a guy who is anti-Jesus in every way just because he dangled stopping abortion in front of their face. They don’t mind that the things Trump does are all prohibited in the Bible itself and abortion is not. They’ve traded the God of Christianity for a God of pro-life, and nothing else matters. * * * As for abortion, of course the fetus, embryo, and zygote are human. What else would they be? So are the ova and spermatazoa. The question is whether they are persons entitled to life. Even the Catholic church considers birth control a minor sin. They don’t treat it the same. They do, however, say a xygote is a full on human. But the difference is simply additional genetic material. There’s nothing that happens that makes the xygote suddenly have a soul but the sperm and egg not. The most rational place to be looking for a soul is to be looking for consciousness. The soul goes to heaven when they die, and is conscious. Of course, we can’t prove when consciousness starts. But we can be sure you need a mind of some sort for it to happen, which means you need a functioning brain. Up until around 20 weeks, the fetus does not have this. We can be quite sure it thus does not have a soul, and killing it cannot be more wrong than killing a non-ensouled animal. In fact, sometimes it’s better to kill an animal than to let it waste away because you can’t feed and shelter it. * * * I am worried that I am in part responsible for Trump winning. I’ve been lax on trying to convince people about abortion, because I didn’t want to lose the few friends I have left since becoming much, much less social. The only version I ever used was “Nothing you do will change the law.” But then Pence dangled that in front of them. I overestimated the Christianity of those who call themselves Christians. Sure, they’re all pro-life, but I thought for sure they’d put the Bible first, even with the evidence staring me in the face. If I make it through this year without becoming homeless (I’m on SSI), I worry about how I will have to alienate people next year. Because I can’t sit back and let evil win because evil happens to be pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/85 "2017-01-27T18:01:41Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > OK I admit I was too heavy on the snark in that post, but i figured we were in the pit what the hell. That said the difference in abortion support does illustrate the OPs point that those who do not have to suffer the consequences of an abortion ban call more readily for restrictions to be placed on others that they would be against if they had to suffer. Absolutely. But I suspect there’s greater support among homeowners for mortgage interest being deductible and there would be great support among those with high credit card debt for making credit card interest deductible. This doesn’t mean that every person marches in lockstep with their own self-interest, but it’s a very human quality to tend to believe that which is to your own advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/86 "2017-01-27T18:05:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > The bottom line on this is that abortion isn’t murder because a fetus isn’t a human. It’s simply a biological fact. Let’s examine the truth of that claim. How does biology define a “human?” Please cite your authority or source for your answer. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/87 "2017-01-27T18:12:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s examine the truth of that claim. > > How does biology define a “human?” > > Please cite your authority or source for your answer. Not gonna do your work for you since we are talking about basic biology here. Google will show you that a zygote needs to develop to become a fetus which needs to develop and go thru birth to become a human. Lotsa cites available there. I don’t care what you want to believe, but simply because a zygote _might_ go thru a long process and become a human doesn’t mean it is indeed a human. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/88 "2017-01-27T18:17:29Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Not gonna do your work for you since we are talking about basic biology here. Google will show you that a zygote needs to develop to become a fetus which needs to develop and go thru birth to become a human. Lotsa cites available there. > > I don’t care what you want to believe, but simply because a zygote _might_ go thru a long process and become a human doesn’t mean it is indeed a human. You made a claim: “The bottom line on this is that abortion isn’t murder because a fetus isn’t a human. It’s simply a biological fact.” I dispute this claim. You cannot now say, “It’s obvious; do your own homework.” It’s not obvious. I see plenty of cites for a zygote developing, but no cite for the claim that a zygote is not biologically human. You claimed this to be undeniably true. Show me. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/89 "2017-01-27T18:17:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > If you (general you) wish to believe that a fertilized egg is the same thing as a human, despite the science that shows it isn’t, that’s your problem. However, you simply have no legal or moral right to force that opinion off on other people. Particularly those whose lives would be severely affected by an unwanted pregnancy. > > Those of you (general you) who think that women only get pregnant thru choices they have made, well I’m not sure I can address that level of stupid. Birth control fails, rape happens, and pregnancy can be the result. For those of you that think sex is only for conception, again no legal or moral right to force that on others. > > The bottom line on this is that abortion isn’t murder because a fetus isn’t a human. It’s simply a biological fact. There is a point at which a fetus does indeed become a human, as evinced by the number of vastly premature babies being born who are just like full term babies with the exception of their being smaller and less developed in terms of lung function and so forth. And of course they become that way a considerable time before they’re born. I, myself, have no particular problem with the abortion of fetuses which occur prior to their having reached sentience and prior to their having developed the ability to feel pain, which at this point seems to be around the end of the first trimester although technology increasingly seems to be moving this point back to an even earlier stage. Thus at this point I’d say that I’d favor abortion if it were to occur no later than the end of the first trimester, and be completely prohibited and considered murder thereafter. > [@curlcoat](#): > > To those folks who wish to believe that a fetus is the same thing as a real living breathing human - just don’t get an abortion. Anything else? None of your business. Cool! Then I suppose that anyone who thinks that rape or robbery or murder are also wrong should simply refrain from them while still allowing everyone else to engage in them at will? I don’t know that society would benefit from such an approach, but it would certainly solve the prison overcrowding problem. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/90 "2017-01-27T18:32:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, she cannot. > > As I clearly said: “…a woman cannot legally give birth and then walk away from the infant **without ensuring that someone cares for him or her**.” > > The purpose of the Safe Haven programs to which you advert is precisely to ensure that a woman can walk away but still ensure that someone will care for the infant. Incorrect. Safe Haven programs ensure that the infant is not left someplace that’s manifestly unsafe. These programs are not responsible ensuring the long-term well-being of the infant. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/91 "2017-01-27T18:32:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I contend that there is a human life from the moment of conception and that consistency demands we afford that life protection. How do you except voting, drinking, driving, consent ages etc. from the demands of consistency? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/92 "2017-01-27T18:32:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You made a claim: “The bottom line on this is that abortion isn’t murder because a fetus isn’t a human. It’s simply a biological fact.” > > I dispute this claim. > > You cannot now say, “It’s obvious; do your own homework.” It’s not obvious. I see plenty of cites for a zygote developing, but no cite for the claim that a zygote is not biologically human. You claimed this to be undeniably true. Show me. I cannot tell if you are lazy or just don’t understand biology. Either way, what you want me to do is akin to citing that the sky is blue on a clear sunny day. Plus, we aren’t talking “a” cite here, since you would need to educate yourself on many different areas of biology to understand the whole picture. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There is a point at which a fetus does indeed become a human, as evinced by the number of vastly premature babies being born who are just like full term babies with the exception of their being smaller and less developed in terms of lung function and so forth. And of course they become that way a considerable time before they’re born. Of course? Also, premature babies are not “just like” full term babies, and many of them are unable to survive due to those differences. > [@](#): > > Thus at this point I’d say that I’d favor abortion if it were to occur no later than the end of the first trimester, and be completely prohibited and considered murder thereafter. What people decide to believe should not be made into law. > [@](#): > > Cool! Then I suppose that anyone who thinks that rape or robbery or murder are also wrong should simply refrain from them while still allowing everyone else to engage in them at will? I don’t know that society would benefit from such an approach, but it would certainly solve the prison overcrowding problem. Don’t be silly. Those are crimes against beings that we all agree are humans. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/93 "2017-01-27T18:38:15Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Incorrect. Safe Haven programs ensure that the infant is not left someplace that’s manifestly unsafe. These programs are not responsible ensuring the long-term well-being of the infant. Sure they are – they transfer the infant to social services or family and child welfare or whatever the relevant agency is called, yes, but their purpose is as the first link in a chain that ensures the long-term well-being of the infant ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/94 "2017-01-27T18:45:29Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I cannot tell if you are lazy or just don’t understand biology. Either way, what you want me to do is akin to citing that the sky is blue on a clear sunny day. Plus, we aren’t talking “a” cite here, since you would need to educate yourself on many different areas of biology to understand the whole picture. What specific aspect of biology do you believe baffles me? You’ve made an incorrect claim. You believe that there is a biological definition of “human” that excludes a zygote. There is not. A zygote contains the unique genetic makeup of a distinct human being as the result of the combination of the two gametes into one diploid cell. That cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents. That makes it human. What’s your biological cite to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/95 "2017-01-27T19:14:01Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Of course? Also, premature babies are not “just like” full term babies, and many of them are unable to survive due to those differences. The fact they can’t survive otherwise is not determinant of their humanity, nor of their ability to think and feel and suffer. Besides, I’m sure you’re aware that full term babies require care in order to survive as well, so the fact premature babies haven’t yet developed strong enough heart or lung function to survive is meaningless in assessing whether or not they are indeed thinking and feeling human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/96 "2017-01-27T19:46:35Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Incorrect. Safe Haven programs ensure that the infant is not left someplace that’s manifestly unsafe. These programs are not responsible ensuring the long-term well-being of the infant. Arguably, under safe haven laws, the woman is making sure that her baby will be cared for. Leave it at a hospital, and you can walk away. Leave it in the dumpster and get tried for murder. But yes, with infants, you can walk away from a child with no reprocussions in most states, as long as you do so responsibly (i.e. make sure the infant is left somewhere they are cared for). Unfortunately, safe haven programs do not cover 14 year old boys who fail school, smoke weed, and are surly and uncoorporative to their parents - no matter how many video games you remove. Those you still have to feed and care for until you can toss them on their ass at eighteen. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/97 "2017-01-27T20:15:41Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/98 "2017-01-27T20:47:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What specific aspect of biology do you believe baffles me? > > You’ve made an incorrect claim. You believe that there is a biological definition of “human” that excludes a zygote. There is not. A zygote contains the unique genetic makeup of a distinct human being as the result of the combination of the two gametes into one diploid cell. That cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents. That makes it human. So you decided to pick a scientific definition that exactly matches the characteristics of a zygote. Is this the generally accepted definition of a human accepted by biologists outside the prolife community? (if so cite). But what about a clone? Which doesn’t have two gamites from diploid cells, or a [chimera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29) in which an individual is made up of multiple zygotes (do they have multiple souls). Or [this girl](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28986843). Your definition would exclude them. I think most scientists wouldn’t bother with two parents part of your definition and simply say that human chromosomes imply human tissue, and so a zygote is human tissue, but not necessarily a human. So a cancer cell or a [stem cell derived from a skin cell](http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news57). Which in the future may be able to be further conditioned to allow it to develop into a fetus. You obviously don’t believe that chemotherapy and exfoliation is murder. Rather than trying to save human life which would include all of the above, I would say that our goal would be to save persons. While a zygote might be human, it doesn’t have and has never had the intellectual capacity to be a person. When does personhood occur? Not clear, probably somewhere in the development between fertilization and birth. Probably somewhere in the third trimester. But even in those cases, a fetus with extreme encephalopathy may not be a person even at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/99 "2017-01-27T21:00:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A zygote contains the unique genetic makeup of a distinct human being as the result of the combination of the two gametes into one diploid cell. That cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents. That makes it human. But this is not an argument for arbitrarily assigning instantaneous full human personhood at the instant of fertilization, unless you’re conflating “human” with “person”. Yes, all human cells are human, by definition, and all living human cells are a form of human life. But that doesn’t necessarily imply that they are human persons. Sure, you can arbitrarily assert that a human fertilized ovum should be considered a person, just as you can arbitrarily assert that a human eight-year-old should be considered an adult. But that doesn’t mean it’s a sensible thing to do. The fact that the fertilized ovum may eventually grow into a human person, just as the eight-year-old may eventually grow into a human adult, isn’t a justification for sticking that label on either of them prematurely. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/100 "2017-01-27T21:12:07Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > And the flipside is that absent similar commitment to abolishing the death penalty and promoting child welfare assurance, the “murder” argument is a strawman used by people who merely want to deny women agency over their own bodies. Given a slight change in circumstances, one can see the authority and legal structures these people seek being used to compel abortions instead of, or as well as, denying them. I absolutely agree! if I allow the authorities to control my biological processes, I’ve just given them carte blanche to control it anyway they see fit. It’s a thin line between love and hate [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260.md?page=6)