# Ladies, you are just too stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260 "2017-01-26T21:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/121 "2017-01-28T05:22:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > Wow. Smug much? And the best kind of smugness, one that is based on being very very very very wrong. > > All Australian states (with the exception of ACT) have laws which allow abortions which [are much more restrictive than would be permssible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Australia#Summary_table)in the United States. Indeed in your most populated states, (NSW,), abortions are illegal and only permitted due to caselaw reading down and require a doctor’s opinion before they can be done. Speaking of ‘very very wrong’, the Aus medical system requires ANY surgical event to be referred by a GP. In other words, if you need a knee-replacement, want a nose-job or require an abortion, you visit your GP for a referral to the specialist surgeon who will then perform the necessary surgery. And regards the ‘doctor’s opinion’, if you happen to be unfortunate enough to go to a doc who doesn’t approve of abortions, you make an appointment to see ANOTHER doc, probably at the same medical centre. IOW, anyone needing an abortion in Australia will get a referral on the same day, and an appointment at either a clinic or a major public hospital within a few weeks. Most abortions are performed before the 12 week mark. Late-term abortions are only performed in cases where the fetus is a threat to the mother’s life, or has such life-limiting disabilities that it will either die before or shortly after birth. Hence my smugness. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/122 "2017-01-28T09:37:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A zygote contains the unique genetic makeup of a distinct human being as the result of the combination of the two gametes into one diploid cell. That cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents. That makes it human. Minor physical contact can result in the loss of epidermal cells. Each such cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents making it human. Should athletes and lovers be charged with homicide when they destroy such a cell? The skin cell cannot develop into a new individual? How about wearing a condom during sex? That leads to the eventual deaths of the spermatozoon and ovum that would otherwise have formed a new human — indeed, such deaths are often the primary purpose of the condom. Should that couple be charged with murder? Oh, I forgot: some of your Ilk does view contraception in that light. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/123 "2017-01-28T10:47:48Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Rape never causes pregnancy, women who say they got pregnant by rape are lying, the baby shouldn’t suffer for the crimes of their father, and the father should get paternal rights. I’ve heard all of these ideas from anti-abortion picketers. My mom’s side of the family prefers “every baby is a gift” and “babies are fearfully and wonderfully made by the Lord” (substituting “knit” for “made” seems popular now for some reason). And don’t forget the ever-popular “she was asking for it”. That attitude alone tells you the basis for so many anti-abortion sentiments. There are people who are genuinely “pro-life” – those who still care what happens after the baby is born – and then there are those who just think women need to be kept in line by fulfilling their duty to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/124 "2017-01-28T11:18:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, the soul attaches upon completion of biological process (fertilization) and leaves upon completion of another (death), aand is otherwise eternal. How does abortion affect the soul, if at all? It does not damage the soul of the abortion victim: > [@Bricker](#): > > But I am convinced that we tarnish our own souls by deliberately destroying the body of another life with a soul. Again, this is my opinion, and I don’t claim it to be objective or verifiable. It’s a non-falsifiable claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/125 "2017-01-28T11:35:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Minor physical contact can result in the loss of epidermal cells. Each such cell contains 23 homologous chromosome pairs from two human parents making it human. Should athletes and lovers be charged with homicide when they destroy such a cell? Not at all. Such lost skin cells contain 23 pairs of chromosomes, yes, but that’s not the only thing I said was in play. Why did you fail to quote the remainder of my words when you asked your question? I spoke of a cell created _as the result of the combination of the two gametes into one diploid cell._ The skin cells you mention are formed by mitosis, and are chromosone copies of the cells that created them. > [@](#): > > The skin cell cannot develop into a new individual? How about wearing a condom during sex? That leads to the eventual deaths of the spermatozoon and ovum that would otherwise have formed a new human — indeed, such deaths are often the primary purpose of the condom. Should that couple be charged with murder? Oh, I forgot: some of your Ilk does view contraception in that light. :smack: I’m not sure who my ilk is. The Catholic church does indeed teach that contraception barriers like condoms are a moral wrong when used in the sex act between husband and wife, but they do not teach that the act is murder, or akin to murder. Which ilk were you picturing? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/126 "2017-01-28T11:37:37Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So again I ask, do Chimera’s have multiple souls? I guess I should also ask whether identical twins have the same soul, or half a soul each. My best understanding is that it’s one soul each. A person that is a chimera has one soul. A person that is a monozygotic twin has one soul; his or her twin also has a soul. Uncontroversially, given my beliefs, a dizygotic twin pair each have souls as well. Again, though, I am emphasizing that this is merely my opinion – I was asked what I believe, not what I can prove. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/127 "2017-01-28T11:53:23Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I see three issues that need to be addressed. > > First, you must deal with your assertion that souls are uniquely human. This is a massive hurdle. You may not rely on arbitrary doctrine, you absolutely must convince us, positing the immortal soul, that only humans have them. The rest of us have observed plenty of evidence that the “spiritual” aspect of humans is shared by our animal kin and very little to suggest that our “souls” are unique to humanity. Can you make it over that hurdle? How many of you are there? Can I work in shifts? You’re right, in a sense. I am not offering any objective, verifiable evidence here. In debate, this is essentially the same as my saying, “My post is my cite.” And although the law does not discuss souls, there’s no question that it currently supports a general right to abortion, so the burden clearly falls to me to convince you – not you specifically, but you in the more general sense of the pronoun. > [@](#): > > But finally, you demand accommodation of your mystical beliefs, merely on the basis of the fact that you believe it. I believe differently. You find my position detestable, and I find your overall doctrine loathsome, so who should concede to whom? There does not appear to be any middle ground here. I find your position to be the result of genuine material error about the state of the universe. I don’t find it detestable. But right now, from a public policy perspective, I should concede to you: we have a process to create law. That process has generated law that largely favors your view. I remain free to advocate for a change to the law, but certainly must acknowledge that at the present time, on the issue of abortion, you’ve won. But the discussion had a more limited purpose, and that was to show the basis for my beliefs did not arise from a postulate that women were stupid. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/128 "2017-01-28T13:39:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How many of you are there? Can I work in shifts? > > You’re right, in a sense. I am not offering any objective, verifiable evidence here. In debate, this is essentially the same as my saying, “My post is my cite.” > > And although the law does not discuss souls, there’s no question that it currently supports a general right to abortion, so the burden clearly falls to me to convince you – not you specifically, but you in the more general sense of the pronoun. > > I find your position to be the result of genuine material error about the state of the universe. I don’t find it detestable. > > But right now, from a public policy perspective, I should concede to you: we have a process to create law. That process has generated law that largely favors your view. > > I remain free to advocate for a change to the law, but certainly must acknowledge that at the present time, on the issue of abortion, you’ve won. > > But the discussion had a more limited purpose, and that was to show the basis for my beliefs did not arise from a postulate that women were stupid. If there existed nearly fool proof birth control, which prevented fertilization, and evidence that government support for it greatly reduces abortion, would you support this government policy for subsidizing this form of birth control? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/129 "2017-01-28T13:50:13Z")
I think you know the answer. Some old pervs in funny robes in Rome tell him no, so no. That would even be “genuine material error about the state of the universe”. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/130 "2017-01-28T14:03:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My best understanding is that it’s one soul each. A person that is a chimera has one soul. A person that is a monozygotic twin has one soul; his or her twin also has a soul. Uncontroversially, given my beliefs, a dizygotic twin pair each have souls as well. > > Again, though, I am emphasizing that this is merely my opinion – I was asked what I believe, not what I can prove. OK, although from my perspective this shoe horning of definitions to try to make current scientific discoveries match with earlier church doctrine, is reminiscent of young earth “geologists” trying find evidence that 40 days and 40 nights of rain explain the grand canyon. Based on our knowledge of science and biology it seems clear that whatever sentience there is that is associated with traditional notions of the soul is related to independent neurological development of the individual. But hey you can believe what you want to, but trying post hoc to develop science based models and definitions for what is an entirely unscientific conclusion, is going to lead to more and more holes that are going to be harder and harder to fill. TLDR: if your going to use faith as a foundation for your world view you are probably better off not bringing zygotes and chromosomes into the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/131 "2017-01-28T14:31:41Z")
I once told a Catholic pro-lifer about the mother and doctor who were thrown out of the Catholic church for permitting an abortion on a nine year old pregnant with twins. When I said “or she would have died,” the person responded “You don’t know that.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/132 "2017-01-28T15:36:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If there existed nearly fool proof birth control, which prevented fertilization, and evidence that government support for it greatly reduces abortion, would you support this government policy for subsidizing this form of birth control? Yes, without a moment’s hesitation. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/133 "2017-01-28T15:39:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If there existed nearly fool proof birth control, which prevented fertilization, and evidence that government support for it greatly reduces abortion, would you support this government policy for subsidizing this form of birth control? It’s called a condom (it’s not perfect but about as close as you can get with proper use). I wonder if Bricker would be willing to have proper condom use taught in high school (with props and students practicing using it on the prop). ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/134 "2017-01-28T15:43:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ridiculous. What choice does a viable fetus/baby have? The woman made a series of choices up to becoming pregnant. Choices have consequences. So did the man. It takes two to tango. I may not hold for old school shotgun weddings, but I sure as hell do believe in “pay your share or else”. The nasty bastard could have kept it in his pants. So let’s spread the “guilt” more fairly. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/135 "2017-01-28T15:47:56Z")
Right. She chose to have her birth control fail or to get pregnant by raped or to become a pregnant lesbian who should be forced to give birth and then give up her child because being raised by a gay parent is “child abuse.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/136 "2017-01-28T15:53:59Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Right. She chose to have her birth control fail or to get pregnant by raped or to become a pregnant lesbian who should be forced to give birth and then give up her child because being raised by a gay parent is “child abuse.” Did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/137 "2017-01-28T15:58:39Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I once told a Catholic pro-lifer about the mother and doctor who were thrown out of the Catholic church for permitting an abortion on a nine year old pregnant with twins. When I said “or she would have died,” the person responded “You don’t know that.” Well, now you’ve told another Catholic pro-lifer about that situation! Here is my reaction: the operation there should be done. It has the intention of saving the life of the nine-year-old. The operation will have the secondary effect of the fetuses dying, but that’s not what’s motivating the operation. The motive is saving the life. So in the future, when you tell this story of sharing it with Catholic pro-lifers, which reaction will you share? Mine, or the first one? As an aside, an excommunication is not an act that “throws one out of the church.” It is an order that forbids the subject from approaching any of the sacraments except for penance. It is intended to encourage reception of the sacrament of penance and reconnection with the church. But the subjects of an excommunication are still members of the Church. They can’t take Communion. They are exCommunicated. Church law imposes this state automatically upon anyone who participates in an abortion, even if the facts ultimately support a finding that the act was just. If it helps, you might imagine it as similar to a decision to subject every self-defense killing to an inquiry, even if the facts ultimately exonerate the shooter. Again, when you re-tell this anecdote, how will you frame it, having been made aware of these facts? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/138 "2017-01-28T16:01:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s called a condom (it’s not perfect but about as close as you can get with proper use). > > I wonder if Bricker would be willing to have proper condom use taught in high school (with props and students practicing using it on the prop). Absolutely. I can’t think of a better way to reduce abortion. I have no concerns whatsoever about teaching contraception. Ideally, of course, students would also be admonished that the use of contraceptives are like having car insurance; the better choice is not have an accident. But since experience is crystal clear that some high schoolers will have sex regardless of what admonishments are sent their way, a strong education component is the best way to prevent pregnancy. I’m completely in favor. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/139 "2017-01-28T16:06:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, now you’ve told another Catholic pro-lifer about that situation! > > Here is my reaction: the operation there should be done. It has the intention of saving the life of the nine-year-old. The operation will have the secondary effect of the fetuses dying, but that’s not what’s motivating the operation. The motive is saving the life. > > So in the future, when you tell this story of sharing it with Catholic pro-lifers, which reaction will you share? Mine, or the first one? > > As an aside, an excommunication is not an act that “throws one out of the church.” It is an order that forbids the subject from approaching any of the sacraments except for penance. It is intended to encourage reception of the sacrament of penance and reconnection with the church. But the subjects of an excommunication are still members of the Church. They can’t take Communion. They are exCommunicated. > > Church law imposes this state automatically upon anyone who participates in an abortion, even if the facts ultimately support a finding that the act was just. If it helps, you might imagine it as similar to a decision to subject every self-defense killing to an inquiry, even if the facts ultimately exonerate the shooter. > > Again, when you re-tell this anecdote, how will you frame it, having been made aware of these facts? Bricker is right. What he said, is the Catholic Church official stance on abortion. As for excommunication, he is right again. but the version with the black candles, Cardinals, stentorian chants, and demons rising up from the ground to “get” the bad guy plays better in the movies. It’s more exciting 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260/140 "2017-01-28T16:08:24Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > OK, although from my perspective this shoe horning of definitions to try to make current scientific discoveries match with earlier church doctrine, is reminiscent of young earth “geologists” trying find evidence that 40 days and 40 nights of rain explain the grand canyon. Based on our knowledge of science and biology it seems clear that whatever sentience there is that is associated with traditional notions of the soul is related to independent neurological development of the individual. But hey you can believe what you want to, but trying post hoc to develop science based models and definitions for what is an entirely unscientific conclusion, is going to lead to more and more holes that are going to be harder and harder to fill. > TLDR: if your going to use faith as a foundation for your world view you are probably better off not bringing zygotes and chromosomes into the discussion. I appreciate the insight, but I don’t associate a soul with sentience. I associate a soul with a set of genetic information that can develop to house sentience, but doesn’t have to. I make room for the possibility that we may discover or encounter non-human life that is ensouled, for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladies-you-are-just-too-stupid/778260.md?page=8)