# LadMirer shouldn't have been banned **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058 "2004-11-29T00:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/181 "2004-11-30T02:35:42Z")
**clairobscur** I am not sure it is political correctness to consider how a comment will be interpreted. I think it is a matter of common civility. I kind of age with you here that the difference would be a major one, but I don’t see avoiding the juxtaposition of homosexuality and pedophilia as being an example of political correctness at all. And I do agree with you on your last point. I personally don’t care if homosexualty/heterosexuality is genetic, chosen, or determined by dice rolls. It does make a difference for legal analysis in the US though, and that is why there is probably more focus on it over here. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/182 "2004-11-30T04:28:30Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Mr. Howitt notes, “The trends are compatible with genetic, family pathology and childhood molestation theories of paedophilia. The authors note that 27% of their sample of paedophiles were on record as having been molested in childhood against 14% of the of the other paraphiliacs but this was not statistically reliable.” Does this statistic suggest that you might be wrong, **Diogenes the Cynic**? 27% seems to be pretty far from 100. Even if it is not reliable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/183 "2004-11-30T04:34:56Z")
It says 27% _on record_, which means that it is not a full accounting and is largely reliant on self reporting. It also doesn’t include other types of trauma and abuse. I still stand uncorrected. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/184 "2004-11-30T04:46:53Z")
Here we go Diogenes from the Beeb: > [@](#): > > A brain tumour caused a 40-year-old man to become obsessed with sex and to molest children, doctors have reported. [link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2345971.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/185 "2004-11-30T04:47:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I still stand uncorrected. I think the point people are trying to make is that you were wrong to state that pedophilia was caused by enviromental issues _as if it were established fact_. Which, clearly, it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/186 "2004-11-30T04:54:14Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Here we go Diogenes from the Beeb: > > [link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2345971.stm) One case means nothing. A brain tumor caused Charles Whitman to climb a tower and kill thirty people with a sniper rifle. That does not represent an argument that spree killing has an organic cause. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/187 "2004-11-30T04:56:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think the point people are trying to make is that you were wrong to state that pedophilia was caused by enviromental issues _as if it were established fact_. Which, clearly, it is not. I only said there was a _correlation_. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/188 "2004-11-30T04:56:40Z")
Bullshit you said 100% of pedophilia is caused by childhood trauma. Here is a case in which pedophilia is not caused by childhood trauma therefore you are wrong when you claim that 100% of pedophilia is caused by childhood trauma. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/189 "2004-11-30T05:00:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Bullshit you said 100% of pedophilia is caused by childhood trauma. Here is a case in which pedophilia is not caused by childhood trauma therefore you are wrong when you claim that 100% of pedophilia is caused by childhood trauma. I said _near_ 100%. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/190 "2004-11-30T05:08:52Z")
[quote=Diogenes the Cynic] I only said there was a correlation. [quote] Fraid not: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t, you ignorant fuck. Pedophilia is a pathology created by early childhood trauma, usually sexual trauma. It is not an inborn orientation. Do not insult homosexuals with this fucking garbage. How can there not be a 100% correlation if pedophilia is caused by early childhood trauma. By the way you haven’t defined what you consider to be childhood trauma. It can reasonably said that every child has at some point endured trauma in their childhood. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/191 "2004-11-30T05:10:50Z")
Ugh bad coding bad! > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I only said there was a correlation. Fraid not: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t, you ignorant fuck. Pedophilia is a pathology created by early childhood trauma, usually sexual trauma. It is not an inborn orientation. Do not insult homosexuals with this fucking garbage. How can there not be a 100% correlation if pedophilia is caused by early childhood trauma. By the way you haven’t defined what you consider to be childhood trauma. It can reasonably said that every child has at some point endured trauma in their childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/192 "2004-11-30T05:12:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I only said there was a _correlation_. That was certainly not your original position, and considering the length of this thread, many people might have missed the part where you modified your that position. Perhaps a restatement of premises would aid further debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/193 "2004-11-30T05:13:25Z")
Later I said that I based that opinion on the near 100% correlation withearly childhood trauma. I stand uncorrected. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/194 "2004-11-30T05:16:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That was certainly not your original position, and considering the length of this thread, many people might have missed the part where you modified your that position. Perhaps a restatement of premises would aid further debate. It’s a Pit thread, not a debate thread. My “restatement” would be that the case for childhood trauma far surpasses any nebulous evidence for genetics. Why is it that someone can blithely state as fact that pedophilia is genetic and still go unchallenged by anyone but me? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/195 "2004-11-30T05:16:10Z")
Then are you still claiming that only “childhood trauma” (which you still haven’t defined) causes pedophillia? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/196 "2004-11-30T05:30:32Z")
I’m saying that’s what the evidence indicates. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/197 "2004-11-30T05:36:37Z")
Lets look at what the op said: > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > On the other hand, it’s fair to say that people are born pedophiles just like people are born homosexuals or heterosexuals. I don’t think it’s a choice. Notice that he said it was ‘fair’ to say that people are born pedophiliac’s also notice that he said he ‘thinks’ its not a choice not ‘is’ not a choice. The OP was expressing his opinion about the cause of pedophilia. Lets look at what you said. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t, you ignorant fuck. Pedophilia is a pathology created by early childhood trauma, usually sexual trauma. It is not an inborn orientation. Do not insult homosexuals with this fucking garbage. Notice how you said that Pedophilia IS created by early childhood trauma. This is not an opinion rather a fact you are asserting. When you were asked for a cite for this fact you pull out the ‘my post is my cite’ nonsense and then proceed on a 4 page diatrabe insulting everyone who dared question this fact. Lets rehash the difference: PaulFitzroy postulated a perfectly reasonable cause of pedophilia as his opinion. You stated a fact, refused to provide a cite and then acted like a complete jackass to anyone with a differing opinion. Even in asking this question you lie again. > [@Diogenes The Cynic](#): > > Why is it that someone can blithely state as fact that pedophilia is genetic and still go unchallenged by anyone but me? Noone stated as a fact that pedophilia is caused by genetics. Numerous posters have provided cites which gave evidence that challenged genetics as the sole cause. and on preview: What do you define childhood trauma as? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/198 "2004-11-30T05:40:24Z")
Childhood trauma can manifest as physical or sexual abuse, neglect or abandonment or exposure to violence against others. The OP said “it is fair to say” something that it is not fair to say. No one has provided any compelling evidence that pedophilia is inborn. We have seen cite of differences in brain chemistry but those difference were not correlated 100% and could not be atrributed as correlating to specific paraphilias rather than other disorders such as anxiety. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/199 "2004-11-30T05:49:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Childhood trauma can manifest as physical or sexual abuse, neglect or abandonment or exposure to violence against others. Ok so then it is your assertion that pedophilia is only caused by physical or sexual abuse, neglect or abandonment or exposure to violence against others in childhood. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The OP said “it is fair to say” something that it is not fair to say. Saying that someones sexual attraction whether it be towards people of the same sex, the other sex, or children is determined prior to birth is a fair hypothesis to make. I don’t understand why the statement that sexual preference is determined prior to birth except if the person is attracted to children is a more fair statement than the OP’s. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No one has provided any compelling evidence that pedophilia is inborn. We have seen cite of differences in brain chemistry but those difference were not correlated 100% and could not be atrributed as correlating to specific paraphilias rather than other disorders such as anxiety. No one has provided any compelling evidence that pedophillia is caused by childhood trauma, nor has there been evidence provided that pedophillia is correlated to near 100% with childhood trauma. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/200 "2004-11-30T06:12:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why is it that someone can blithely state as fact that pedophilia is genetic and still go unchallenged by anyone but me? Possibly because, while both his statement and yours are as of yet equally unproved, you very quickly went off on a four-page screaming-meemie fit insisting he was insulting people and that your position was the correct one, and he didn’t. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Your apology last night to the OP was classy. Your continued insistence that people provide cites to support or disprove YOUR assertion is not. No one has found your mystery study that shows a near 100% correlation (not causation) between childhood trauma and pedophilia. Why don’t you go dig that up? Your entire argument in this thread is based on that elusive statistic. All we have is your word that you heard it in class once. You know what a teacher told me in class once? That before Columbus sailed to America, everybody thought the world was flat. Never mind that there was a lot of history written elsewhere that indicates people knew it was round long before then; it doesn’t matter, I heard it in class, so fuck you, it’s a fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=11)