# LadMirer shouldn't have been banned **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058 "2004-11-29T00:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/41 "2004-11-29T03:33:15Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Regardless of the truth of the cause, you are getting entirely too weird here. Many mental diseases are genetic. Why is saying that this one may be a swipe at anyone? Paraphilias are not genetic. If the OP’s assertion that “On the other hand, it’s fair to say that people are born pedophiles **just like people are born homosexuals** …” is not an attempt to find equivalency, then let him say so and I’ll retract the insult. I will only point that he’s ignorant if he thinks there’s any evidence to support a genetic basis for pedophilia. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/42 "2004-11-29T03:33:49Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > how the fuck are you proposing doing that? if mind reading were legal would you require everyone to submit to a pedophilia scan? You’re being disingenious. Acts of pedophlia are already outlawed. I said nothing about outlawing anybody’s thoughts and desires. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/43 "2004-11-29T03:33:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no research to showthat pedophilia is inborn. There is plenty to show that it is caused by sexual abuse. Pedophillia being “caused by” sexual abuse doesn’t preclude a genetic component. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/44 "2004-11-29T03:38:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I will only point that he’s ignorant if he thinks there’s any evidence to support a genetic basis for pedophilia. Well, I’m not going to go googling “pedophilia” to look for research into the basis for it. That’s irrelevant to my point. I think you’re reading too much into what the OP said. I could be wrong, and YMMV, and all that good stuff. I’m not going to get into a fight with you about it. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/45 "2004-11-29T03:40:34Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Pedophillia being “caused by” sexual abuse doesn’t preclude a genetic component. Exactly. Lots of people are sexually abused as children, but not all of them become pedophiles. The abuse may very well be the main trigger, but the predisposition towards pedophilia is likely already present. What would cause this predispositon, if not genetics? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/46 "2004-11-29T03:41:22Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Pedophillia being “caused by” sexual abuse doesn’t preclude a genetic component. It doesn’t preclude the possibility that pedophiles are cursed by elves either. That has the same amount of evidence as a genetic component. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/47 "2004-11-29T03:42:35Z")
A quick and admittedly incomplete search suggests that the actual causes of pedophilia are not fully understood, although there is general agreement on some issues. [This site](http://cms.psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia.html#Causes) says: > [@](#): > > The precise cause or causes of pedophilia (and other paraphilias) are not known. There is some evidence that pedophilia may run in families, but this could suggest either a genetic or a learned behavior effect. > > Other factors, such as abnormalities in male sexual hormones or the brain chemical serotonin, have been hypothesized but never proved as factors in the development of paraphilias or pedophilia. A history of childhood sexual abuse has also been put forth as a factor in the development of pedophilias but this, too, has not been proved. [This one](http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/pedophilia.htm) says only: [quote] Most paraphilic fantasies begin in late childhood or adolescence and continue throughout adult life. Intensity and occurrence of the fantasies are variable, and they usually decrease as people get older. And [this one](http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZUZRUZGLC&sub_cat=355) similarly offers little insight: > [@](#): > > Pedophilia usually begins in adolescence, although some individuals report they did not become aroused by children until middle age. Often the pedophiliac behavior increases or decreases according to the psychological and social stress level of the individual. The 2001 edition of the [Columbia Encyclopedia](http://www.bartleby.com/65/pe/pedophil.html) notes: > [@](#): > > The cause or causes of pedophilia are not well understood. Personality problems may be evident, and the pedophile often shows little or no concern for the effects of his sexual behavior on the child. Researchers have reported that psychotherapy in conjunction with the use of testosterone-lowering drugs has substantially reduced the desire in male pedophiles to molest children. The most detailed account i could find was [this one](http://pioneer.csuhayward.edu/PioneerWeb/PioneerNews5-9-02/PioneerNews5-9-02-Page9.pdf) (pdf), which says, in part: > [@](#): > > “The only thing we know for sure is that it is not a voluntary choice,” said Fred Berlin, a psychologist and founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. “No one decides that they want to be attracted to children. We discover who we are attracted to as we grow up, and those with pedophilia have discovered that they are attracted to children.” > > \ > > Scientists have not uncovered a biological basis for the condition, such as a hormonal imbalance. Psychologists instead believe that the illness is rooted in childhood experiences. > > “We think it’s a learned behavior that is highly correlated with a history of neglect, child sexual abuse, physical abuse or emotional abuse,” said Barbara Mara, an Orlando clinical psychologist who counsels child victims and assesses offenders for the court system. > > Some pedophiles may act on their desires only when under stress. In less difficult times, the same pedophile might carry out normal relationships with adults. Other pedophiles are locked in immaturity, unable to interact meaningfully with fellow adults. “The pedophile is looking for a relationship, a friendship with the child,” Grimm said. “It’s as if they were a child themselves. Emotionally, they are quite immature and they really like that interaction with children.” > > \ > > “One of the problems is that pedophilia has always been looked at as a moral issue, and it is a moral issue, but there are also legitimate questions of science and biology that need to be addressed,” Berlin said. “There’s a lot of this out there, and we need to stop operating in the dark.” ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/48 "2004-11-29T03:42:41Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > What would cause this predispositon, if not genetics? The curses of elves, if I follow Diogenes logic correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/49 "2004-11-29T03:43:34Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Exactly. Lots of people are sexually abused as children, but not all of them become pedophiles. The abuse may very well be the main trigger, but the predisposition towards pedophilia is likely already present. Cite? What research or study vcan you provide which would suggest this? > [@](#): > > What would cause this predispositon, if not genetics? People react to abuse in all kinds of ways. Some cut themselves or acquire eating disorders. Would you say that they have genetic predispositions to those things? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/50 "2004-11-29T03:46:21Z")
The crucial part of **mhendo’s cite** : > [@](#): > > **We think it’s a learned behavior that is highly correlated with a history of neglect, child sexual abuse, physical abuse or emotional abuse," said Barbara Mara, an Orlando clinical psychologist who counsels child victims and assesses offenders for the court system.** ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/51 "2004-11-29T03:50:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That has the same amount of evidence as a genetic component. Oh, really? Well, I can’t find an elf curse study, but: > [@](#): > > There may exist a genetic form of pedophilia without this disturbance being genetically transmitted in most cases. A patient whose pedophilia may have been due to genetic transmission was described in an earlier study (Freund and Blanchard, 1993, p. 560/561). He had four brothers, one of them, his twin, is most likely also pedophilic (see original study). Among the three older brothers, two started approaching him sexually when he was 10 years old. I saw both in adulthood when they were charged for pedophilic offenses. From [here](http://www.unites.uqam.ca/dsexo/Revue/Vol2no1/10_Freund~1.html). ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/52 "2004-11-29T03:50:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The crucial part of **mhendo’s cite** : So what? Being correlated with one factor doesn’t even prove that the factor is necessary to cause the orientation, much less that it’s necessary and sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/53 "2004-11-29T03:52:05Z")
I think what annoys many to see homosexuality and pedophilia placed in the same comparison is that it is done by both the homohobes and those like NAMBLA on a regular basis. You can’t have a discussion on homosexuality without someone throwing in the fallacious allegation that gay men are prone to pedophilia. Similarly, those seeking to legalize child abuse often try to portray themselves as oppressed in the manner of gays (I guess consent doesn’t figure into their calculations…) So, when a comparison like this is made, it immediately brings such objectional comparisons to mind. If the attempt was really to compare pedophilia with other genetic traits, then there are plenty of others that do not carry any of the baggage a comparative linking with homosexuality does. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/54 "2004-11-29T03:54:07Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Well, I’m not going to go googling “pedophilia” to look for research into the basis for it. . Well, you can. I just googled it, and with a couple exceptions (which are obvious, and most certainly aren’t to actual pedophilia sites) , all the links are to sites discussing the issue itself. I don’t feel like reading two dozens sites on this topic tonight, so I won’t advance an opinion backed by cites. Just wanting to say it’s safe for people who would want to dig in the question. However, I did so in the past, and my overall feeling was that the issue of the origin of pedophilia wasn’t settled at all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/55 "2004-11-29T03:56:04Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Oh, really? Well, I can’t find an elf curse study, but: > > From [here](http://www.unites.uqam.ca/dsexo/Revue/Vol2no1/10_Freund~1.html). There is no doubt that pedophilia is perpetuated within families. That in itself does not prove a genetic component, especially when the correlation with sexual abuse is so high. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/56 "2004-11-29T03:59:10Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > So what? Being correlated with one factor doesn’t even prove that the factor is necessary to cause the orientation, much less that it’s necessary and sufficient. When that correlation approaches 100% and there are virtually zero occurances of pedophilia _without_ that factor, I think it’s a pretty safe guess. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/57 "2004-11-29T04:00:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no doubt that pedophilia is perpetuated within families. That in itself does not prove a genetic component, especially when the correlation with sexual abuse is so high. Of course not. But it does _suggest_ a genetic component is at least possible. You cannot just dismiss the possibility out of hand, as you have been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/58 "2004-11-29T04:02:01Z")
> [@villa](#): > > So, when a comparison like this is made, it immediately brings such objectional comparisons to mind. If the attempt was really to compare pedophilia with other genetic traits, then there are plenty of others that do not carry any of the baggage a comparative linking with homosexuality does. Good point. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Just wanting to say it’s safe for people who would want to dig in the question. Thanks. I had a bad experience googling “Alice in Wonderland” at work one time. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/59 "2004-11-29T04:04:30Z")
Where are you getting this 100% correlation number Diogenes? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/60 "2004-11-29T04:04:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The crucial part of **mhendo’s cite** : When it has been made abundantly clear that there are several compelling hypotheses concerning the root causes of paedophilia, none of which have been conclusively proven, on what basis do you so arbitrarily and vociferously propound one particular hypothesis? You may as well froth at the mouth and insist that it _is_ elven curses, for all the weight that carries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=4)