# LadMirer shouldn't have been banned **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058 "2004-11-29T00:27:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/101 "2004-11-29T05:49:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just doing my part as a member of the non-psychotic left. We all hope you come back real soon. Is there anything political about anything I’ve said in this thread? WTF does “left” have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/102 "2004-11-29T05:49:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I also hate typing the word “pedophilia” into a search engine. I fear what may turn up. [Here, I googled pedohilia for you](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pedophilia&btnG=Google+Search) [Here’s pedophilia causation](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=pedophilia+causation&btnG=Search) The links look pretty safe to me, at least the first 10 of the several hundred thousand, so you can scratch that excuse off your list. And just for fun, [here’s pedophilia elf curse](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=pedophilia+elf+curse&btnG=Search). 381 listings, so maybe you’re on to something there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/103 "2004-11-29T05:51:59Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Actually I think we need a rule or at least a tacit agreement of just the oppostie. Our friend **Diogenes the Cynic** has admitted on a few occasions that he flies off the hand far more easily when he is not as familiar with a subject. Cite? Notice that his cite so far has been “I got it from a human sexuality class in college”. I suggest we take him at his word and simply ignore him when he does this. Perhaps we could alter our manifesto to fighitng polite ignorance and ignoring the rest? [/QUOTE] Be my guest, bitch. I’m not forcing you to post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/104 "2004-11-29T05:53:02Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > [Here, I googled pedohilia for you](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pedophilia&btnG=Google+Search) > > [Here’s pedophilia causation](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=pedophilia+causation&btnG=Search) > > The links look pretty safe to me, at least the first 10 of the several hundred thousand, so you can scratch that excuse off your list. > > And just for fun, [here’s pedophilia elf curse](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=pedophilia+elf+curse&btnG=Search). 381 listings, so maybe you’re on to something there. So you did the work. Now show me the cites that prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/105 "2004-11-29T05:53:25Z")
It’s relatively difficult to come up with good citations on this subject using a regular Google search, so i made use of my status as a university student and went into the online medical databases available to me through my university account. I should note here that coverage of medical issues is, to put it mildly, pretty good in the Johns Hopkins library system. There are literally hundreds of articles in medical, psychiatric and psychological journals covering the issue of pedophilia and paraphilia. Many of them deal with very specific issues of identification and treatment, or of correlation with other factors, or likely recidivism rates, or any one of hundreds of other factors. The best overview article i could find on the subject came from the _Journal of the American Medical Association_. The full citation for the article is: **Peter J. Fagan, PhD; Thomas N. Wise, MD; Chester W. Schmidt, Jr, MD; Fred S. Berlin, MD, PhD, “Pedophilia,” _JAMA_, 288:19 (November 20, 2002), pp. 2458-2465.** I can’t give a link, because you need a _JAMA_ account to view the article online. The authors open their article with the following statement: > [@](#): > > The purpose of this article is to increase health care professionals’ understanding of pedophilia, a psychiatric disorder affecting a portion of the individuals who sexually abuse children. It addresses risk factors associated with the disorder, treatment, treatment outcomes, physician responsibilities associated with case identification, and recommendations for criminal and medical systems collaboration. Some of the salient details from the article follow: > [@](#): > > The NIS-3 reported that natural parents accounted for 29%, other parents for 25%, and others in a caretaking role for 46% of the offenders. In addition, a sexually abused child was most likely to sustain a serious injury or impairment when a birth parent was the perpetrator. Approximately 89% of the children were abused by a male, compared to 12% abused by a female. > > \ > > Such data can provide only some approximation of the prevalence of pedophilia in a population for 2 reasons. First, a pedophilic disorder may be present in a person who does not act on the fantasies and impulses. Second, not all child sexual crime is the product of a pedophilic disorder. > > \ > > It is not known why some adults and older adolescents are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Lacking this knowledge, clinicians and researchers have used typologies to gain a greater understanding of the causal or correlational phenomena involved in pedophilia. Thus, dichotomous types such as familial vs nonfamilial offenders, touching vs nontouching, seductive vs aggressive are appealing at first glance. But the dichotomies should not obscure the variety and complexity of the expression of pedophilic behaviors. At this point, the typologies and categories should be considered conjunctive and suggestive of group differences, not mutually exclusive categories. > > \ > > Another strategy to better understand etiologic issues in pedophilia is to identify risk factors—both remote and precipitant.22 Risk factors in the early life history that may have been pathogenic for pedophilia can differ from those risk factors that maintain continuance in the present. One of the most frequently cited remote risk factors for pedophilic behaviors is the individual’s own personal experience of being a victim of sexual abuse.23-24 Other researchers have cited an inadequate attachment style that is rooted in a dysfunctional family as a remote risk factor.25 > > Elevated plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels, and reduced cortisol responses to meta-chlorophenylpiperazine challenges have been identified in pedophilic cohorts. The investigators hypothesized that there is increased sympathetic activity and reduced serotonergic activity present in the pedophilic samples. However, the investigators could not rule out the possibility that their pedophilic sample had a high comorbidity of anxiety disorder, and as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder. Other developmental and organic phenomena have been described in pedophilic individuals. Gaffney and Berlin documented a marked elevation in the release of luteinizing hormone to the intravenous infusion of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone within a group of pedophilic patients when compared with nonpedophilic patients. A report of 2 older men with temporal lobe disease and the emergence of late life pedophilia led the authors to suggest that a dementing illness may lead to sexual disinhibition of previously behaviorally controlled pedophilic vulnerabilities. > > \ > > Raymond et al reported the presence of a 93.3% lifetime and 75.5% current psychiatric comorbid disorder, most of these being depression and anxiety disorders. Sixty percent had a lifetime substance abuse history, 51% of the total group having alcohol as their drug of choice. Sixty percent of the men met the criteria for a personality disorder, the chief among them being obsessive-compulsive (25%), antisocial (22.5%), narcissistic (20%), and avoidant (20%). These data indicate a high prevalence of personality disorder relative to the population and counter the belief that pedophilic behaviors are simply an expression of antisocial or narcissistic personality disorders. As noted by Raymond et al, 77.5% of the men did not meet criteria for antisocial personality disorder, and 80% did not meet the narcissistic personality criteria. This is all the article has to say on the etiology of pedophilia. I did find another piece, **Richard Green, MD, JD, “Is Pedophilia a Mental Disorder,” _Archives of Sexual Behavior_, 31:6 (December 2002), pp. 467-471** (again, no link possible), which had something interesting to say. Green points out that the extant studies of pedophiles all suffer certain inherent biases that mitigate against a complete understanding of the problem: > [@](#): > > Nearly all studies involve prisoners or those convicted of a criminal offence. These are doubtfully representative of all pedophiles who have contact with children and certainly not representative of pedophiles who confine their eroticism to fantasy and so do not break the law. Finkelhor et al. (1986) observed the following sampling bias in convicted sex offenders: “[They are] a small fraction of all offenders, the most flagrant and repetitive in offending, most socially disadvantaged, and least able to persuade criminal justice authorities to let them off.” Something worth thinking about. ---
**Author:** ![Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9dc877/32.png) [@Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightwatch_Trailer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/106 "2004-11-29T05:54:15Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > [hijack] > You step off the boards for a couple of days, and look what happens… > > Has the original thread been taken down? What in the blue blazes _happened_? > [/hijack] Yes, it was disappeared. As was the guy’s second thread, after he came back as **LadMirer2**. I caught the second one (actually saved it because I knew it was about to be disappeared) but not the first. (Luckily, it seems.) ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/107 "2004-11-29T05:56:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I need a cite for an opinion? It’s my _opinion_ that equating homosexuality with pedophilia is insulting to people who are homosexual. Right. But he wasn’t equating homosexuality with pedophillia, he was equating the inborn causes of the two–this is a much more specific equivocation then “equating homosexuality with pedophilia.” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/108 "2004-11-29T05:57:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > OK, I was sloppy. The high correlation is with childhood trauma. That trauma can take many forms. Childhood trauma? Thats the biggest bunch of fucking shit I have ever heard. Psychologist: Did you endure any childhood trauma? Pedophile 1: Well I fell down the stairs when I was 5 and hurt my arm pretty bad. Pedophile 2: Well I watched my dog get run over by a car when I was 8 Pedophile 3: I had glasses when I was 7 and all of the kids made fun of me. Psychologist: AHA! Your pedophillia is clearly due to these traumas! ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/109 "2004-11-29T05:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I need a cite for an opinion? It’s my opinion that equating homosexuality with pedophilia is insulting to people who are homosexual. Is it also then insulting to heterosexuals to equate it with heterosexuality? 'Cause as it’s been pointed out, the OP did that too. Why are you singling out the homosexual comparison, here? And if it IS just your opinion, instead of something you learned in a human sexuality class as you first asserted, it’s insulting to nobody, and you’re being offended and calling people fuckface just for the sake of being offended and calling people fuckface. Fuck it. I’m going to bed now, I gotta get up early in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/110 "2004-11-29T05:58:36Z")
Thanks, **mhendo**. The relevant portion: > [@](#): > > One of the most frequently cited remote risk factors for pedophilic behaviors is the individual’s own personal experience of being a victim of sexual abuse.23-24 Other researchers have cited an inadequate attachment style that is rooted in a dysfunctional family as a remote risk factor.25 I notice there was nothing in your quoted material that cited any genetic factors. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/111 "2004-11-29T05:59:37Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Right. But he wasn’t equating homosexuality with pedophillia, he was equating the inborn causes of the two–this is a much more specific equivocation then “equating homosexuality with pedophilia.” Maybe, maybe not. Let’s hear the OP say it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/112 "2004-11-29T05:59:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is there anything political about anything I’ve said in this thread? WTF does “left” have to do with anything? Well, it’s not exactly like the right is well known for hysterical over-reactions to perceived instances of homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/113 "2004-11-29T06:03:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I beg to differ. On what basis? Exploring the theory that there is a genetic vector for paedophilia insults neither homosexuals nor heterosexuals. Arguing that we mustn’t consider the possibility paedophilia being transmitted genetically because it is insulting to homosexuals is ludicrous – You might as well argue that we shouldn’t look into a genetic cause of [Epidermolysis Bullosa](http://www.debra.org/) because it’s offensive to black people/white people/asian people/whatever. It _must_ be environmental. Look, all of those kids have been exposed to cotton! Cotton is the answer! Case closed, look no further! Not good science, dude. The correlation to sexual abuse is consistent with several theories, all of which should be considered. It’s important to weigh the data properly. There are studies that show largely-equivalent rates of childhood abuse between paedos and non-paedos. How is the methodology different? One thing that ought to be considered is how many studies are dependent on self-reporting for their numbers, and under what circumstances the information is obtained. It’s not unreasonable to consider the possibility that studies using convicted child molesters may have more incidence of false reports of childhood abuse, since the offenders may be motivated to report data in the hopes that it might be considered exculpatory. Personally, it seems to me that, since the jury is so emphatically out, it seems silly to pick one theory and cling to it as if it’s the gospel truth, insulting anyone who hesitates to accept it. It may very well be that the transmisssion of paedophilia is a simple matter of an abuse cycle. We just don’t have enough data to make that determination yet, and if we decide we have, than it’s very possible that more children will come to harm as a result of our certainty. That’s a really shitty gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/114 "2004-11-29T06:05:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I notice there was nothing in your quoted material that cited any genetic factors. Not directly, but: > [@](#): > > Elevated plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels, and reduced cortisol responses to meta-chlorophenylpiperazine challenges have been identified in pedophilic cohorts. The investigators hypothesized that there is increased sympathetic activity and reduced serotonergic activity present in the pedophilic samples. However, the investigators could not rule out the possibility that their pedophilic sample had a high comorbidity of anxiety disorder, and as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder. Other developmental and organic phenomena have been described in pedophilic individuals. What, other than genetics, could account for these organic symptoms? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/115 "2004-11-29T06:06:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I notice there was nothing in your quoted material that cited any genetic factors. That’s true. There was no mention of genetics in that article. I would add, though, that our incomplete understanding of the nature of genetic inheritance of certain traits, and the fact that some other articles were calling for more investigation into this issue, suggests that we might usefully stick with the old maxim: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/116 "2004-11-29T06:06:47Z")
In retrospect, maybe I overracted to **PaulFitroy’s** Op and inferred what he did not intend to imply. I should have just asked for a cite for his statement that pedophiles are born that way and left it at that. I apologize to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/117 "2004-11-29T06:07:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So you did the work. Now show me the cites that prove me wrong. Fuck you! You’re the one spouting the “facts” and then, when challenged, namby pamby about how you’re askeert to type a word into a search engine. I did what you were afraid to do. Now you do the research. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/118 "2004-11-29T06:08:17Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Not directly, but: > > What, other than genetics, could account for these organic symptoms? Brain chemistry can be changed by trauma. This is well known. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/119 "2004-11-29T06:10:11Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Fuck you! You’re the one spouting the “facts” and then, when challenged, namby pamby about how you’re askeert to type a word into a search engine. I did what you were afraid to do. Now you do the research. I don’t feel like it. So there. What are you going to do, sue me? Reject my assertion. I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/120 "2004-11-29T06:15:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In retrospect, maybe I overracted to **PaulFitroy’s** Op and inferred what he did not intend to imply. > > I should have just asked for a cite for his statement that pedophiles are born that way and left it at that. > > I apologize to the OP. Welcome back! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058.md?page=7)