# LadMirer shouldn't have been banned

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [November 29, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058 "2004-11-29T00:27:18Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 8

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**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/141 "2004-11-29T08:24:19Z")

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**Ellis Dee** , I have been laughing at this thread for some time. Although not because it was any jokes. 😉

**Liberal** , to be precise, **Diogenes the Cynic** knew this from the begining. Notice the one time he quoted the OP directly. He had to replace heterosexual with “…”.

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**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/142 "2004-11-29T08:25:05Z")

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> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> > [@Q.E.D.'s cite](#):
> >
> > Elevated plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine levels, and reduced cortisol responses to meta-chlorophenylpiperazine challenges have been identified in pedophilic cohorts. The investigators hypothesized that there is increased sympathetic activity and reduced serotonergic activity present in the pedophilic samples. However, the investigators could not rule out the possibility that their pedophilic sample had a high comorbidity of anxiety disorder, and as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder. Other developmental and organic phenomena have been described in pedophilic individuals.
> 
> What, other than genetics, could account for these organic symptoms?

I know it’ll probably piss you off, but you need to answer for this one.

Here’s the important part: _ **…the investigators… as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder** _.

Your own cite spreads serious doubt over the “genetic origins” of paedophilia.

What gives?

And Diogenes, why’d you ratify this poop?

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/143 "2004-11-29T08:27:26Z")

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> [@pervert](#):
>
> **Ellis Dee** , I have been laughing at this thread for some time. Although not because it was any jokes. 😉
> 
> **Liberal** , to be precise, **Diogenes the Cynic** knew this from the begining. Notice the one time he quoted the OP directly. He had to replace heterosexual with “…”.

It’s called an ellipse. I initially thought PF was just being careful and giving himself a built in out but I already admitted that I was probably wrong and overreacting.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/144 "2004-11-29T08:32:04Z")

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> [@El Cid Viscoso](#):
>
> I know it’ll probably piss you off, but you need to answer for this one.
> 
> Here’s the important part: _ **…the investigators… as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder** _.
> 
> Your own cite spreads serious doubt over the “genetic origins” of paedophilia.
> 
> What gives?
> 
> And Diogenes, why’d you ratify this poop?

Well I did mention that fact that trauma can alter brain chemistry but good point.

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**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/145 "2004-11-29T08:35:16Z")

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Actually, an ellipsis. I had to look it up, so you were closer than I would have been.

I acknowledge that you admitted your over reaction to the OP. I did not mean to demean that at all.

I was only trying to be “precise”. Or, perhaps more precisely, I was trying to help **Liberal** to be precise. I know how important it is to be precise. 😉

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/146 "2004-11-29T08:36:36Z")

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Er…that should have been “ellipse **s** ,” with an ‘s.’

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/147 "2004-11-29T08:38:20Z")

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Aw, bloody hell. THEY are “ellipses,” IT is an “ellipsis.”

I should go to bed.

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**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/148 "2004-11-29T11:58:24Z")

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> [@villa](#):
>
> So, when a comparison like this is made, it immediately brings such objectional comparisons to mind. If the attempt was really to compare pedophilia with other genetic traits, then there are plenty of others that do not carry any of the baggage a comparative linking with homosexuality does.

Yes. But AFAIK, homosexuality is the only sexual behavior which is generally accepted as being a genetic trait (\*). As such it’s the best comparison available. Comparing pedophilia with having blue eyes doesn’t make much sense.

(\*) at least on this board/ in the US. Most homosexuals I knew/heard or read comment from didn’t like the concept at all. They thought that this made them appear as freaks, different from everybody else, essentially perceived “it’s genetic” as equally insulting as “it’s a disease”, and pointed at a lack of evidences for it being actually a genetic trait. Interesting difference in perception.

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**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/149 "2004-11-29T12:05:28Z")

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> [@pervert](#):
>
> Actually, an ellipsis. I had to look it up, so you were closer than I would have been.
> 
> I acknowledge that you admitted your over reaction to the OP. I did not mean to demean that at all.
> 
> I was only trying to be “precise”. Or, perhaps more precisely, I was trying to help **Liberal** to be precise. I know how important it is to be precise. 😉

Well, to be precise, ellipse is an acceptable variant of ellipsis. See definition (2):

> **[Definition of ellipse | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ellipse)**
>
> Definition of ellipse from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.

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**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/150 "2004-11-29T13:54:52Z")

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I know it’s not necessary, as this crowd is a lot more discerning than most, but I’d still like to request that no one associate Diogenes’ several page long rant with the opinions of actual queers.

Thank you.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/151 "2004-11-29T14:03:50Z")

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> [@Excalibre](#):
>
> I know it’s not necessary, as this crowd is a lot more discerning than most, but I’d still like to request that no one associate Diogenes’ several page long rant with the opinions of actual queers.
> 
> Thank you.

Yes, because you can speak for all queers.

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**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/152 "2004-11-29T14:57:08Z")

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I’m not sure what the heart of this “debate” is. The assertion is that if pedophilia is genetic the pedophile is blameless, but if it is caused by childhood trauma then it is a lifestyle choice?

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**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/153 "2004-11-29T14:57:57Z")

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I don’t think it makes a difference whether pedophiles are “born that way” or not. Adults having sex with children is harmful to children. People with a desire to harm children ought to seek psychological help.

Furthermore, if someone has a desire to harm children then there’s something wrong with them, and there’s nothing wrong with saying that there’s something wrong with them. Whether it’s genetic or not makes no difference. Perhaps some people are genetically predisposed to commit murder, too. But if someone told me they feel a strong desire to commit murder, I wouldn’t say “Well, just don’t act on it.” I’d say “Please see a doctor about your problem.”

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**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/154 "2004-11-29T15:40:39Z")

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> [@El Cid Viscoso](#):
>
> I know it’ll probably piss you off, but you need to answer for this one.
> 
> Here’s the important part: _ **…the investigators… as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder** _.
> 
> Your own cite spreads serious doubt over the “genetic origins” of paedophilia.
> 
> What gives?

Ahem:

> [@](#):
>
> However, the investigators could not rule out the possibility that their pedophilic sample had a high comorbidity of anxiety disorder, and as a consequence could not be certain whether the documented results were specific to pedophilia or an artifact attributable to the presence of anxiety disorder. **Other developmental and organic phenomena have been described in pedophilic individuals.**

Unfortunately, **mhendo** doesn’t quote enough of his source to know what those phenomena are, but my reading of the bolded bit is that the reasearchers did identify at least some specific organic conditions that were associated with pedophilia.

To be fair, hoever, it has to be said that I don’t necessarily support a genetic-origins hypothesis. My intent was to show **Dio** that his “childhood sexual abuse trigger” hypothesis was not necessarily the correct one.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/155 "2004-11-29T15:51:03Z")

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> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Well, to be precise, ellipse is an acceptable variant of ellipsis. See definition (2):
> 
> [Ellipse Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ellipse)

Thank you. I did not hink **Diogenes the Cynic** could be wrong. I looked up ellipse and did not find a dictionary with that definition included. Clearly I did not look in enough dictionaries.

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**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/156 "2004-11-29T16:12:07Z")

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> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> Unfortunately, **mhendo** doesn’t quote enough of his source to know what those phenomena are, but my reading of the bolded bit is that the reasearchers did identify at least some specific organic conditions that were associated with pedophilia.

Unfortunately, that’s really all the information there was. Had there been more, i would have quoted it. The article was intended as a general overview, and didn’t go into great depth when discussing the “Etiological and Precipitant Risk Factors” of pedophilia. There are other articles in the footnotes that might shed more light on the subject, but at the moment i have too much of my own work to do. Maybe i’ll try to look up a few more articles tonight.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/157 "2004-11-29T16:20:55Z")

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> [@mhendo](#):
>
> Maybe i’ll try to look up a few more articles tonight.

Please, no rush. It was good of you to take the time to look up what you did, and I do appreciate it. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/158 "2004-11-29T17:54:04Z")

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> [@pervert](#):
>
> I did not hink **Diogenes the Cynic** could be wrong.

In that, you and DtC have something in common.

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/159 "2004-11-29T18:35:43Z")

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> [@yoyodyne](#):
>
> I’m not sure what the heart of this “debate” is. The assertion is that if pedophilia is genetic the pedophile is blameless, but if it is caused by childhood trauma then it is a lifestyle choice?

No, it sounds like at this point it’s just an argument over whether there is a genetic component or not.

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**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladmirer-shouldnt-have-been-banned/277058/160 "2004-11-29T18:37:09Z")

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> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> Yes. But AFAIK, homosexuality is the only sexual behavior which is generally accepted as being a genetic trait (\*). As such it’s the best comparison available. Comparing pedophilia with having blue eyes doesn’t make much sense.
> 
> (\*) at least on this board/ in the US. Most homosexuals I knew/heard or read comment from didn’t like the concept at all. They thought that this made them appear as freaks, different from everybody else, essentially perceived “it’s genetic” as equally insulting as “it’s a disease”, and pointed at a lack of evidences for it being actually a genetic trait. Interesting difference in perception.

I see your point, but then surely the point could have been made equally as well with heterosexuality as the sole comparison. I don’t know how the OP meant the comparison, though I hope and assume it wasn’t badly. But there are just some comparisons that ring alarm bells with me, and so I try to avoid them. Homosexuality and pedophilia being the prime example there. I reallydon’t know if pedophilia is genetic, though if what you have said is true and no other paraphilias (is that he word) are genetic, I would doubt it.

As for the aserisked point, I have thought about that but not come across it. It makes sense, though of course is based on the misunderstanding that genetic is the same as disease. If homosexuality is genetic, as I think the evidence suggests, then I would support education to dispel the false connection with disease, rather than the alternative.

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