# Ladylike & gentlemanly - offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 22, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266 "2008-05-22T16:44:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/41 "2008-05-22T23:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Some states do laws that restrict a woman from being inseminated without her husband’s permission. That leads to a lot of self-insemination I’m unsure what you are talking about here. Your first claim was about single women, now they need their husband’s permission. So, either there’s some contradiction, or we’re talking about separated couples. If the latter, where is the sperm coming from? Frozen sperm from the husband? If so, you’d damn well better need permission to use it! > [@](#): > > I’ve heard this from many men, most of them defending OJ Simpson. “A man can have lovers, a woman shouldn’t. And if she does, killing her is justified.” Many? Like how many? ---
**Author:** ![beanpod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@beanpod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beanpod)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/42 "2008-05-22T23:38:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **beanpod** , I have every intention of using that excuse next time someone wants me to do any manual labour. I know, right? I think it was all a combination of these factors: 1. She was born in a holler in KY the 30s. She’s remarkably progressive for her upbringing, but she’s got her blind spots that the family’s got to deal with. 2. She was, frankly, beginning to lose her marbles. 3. She might have heard something about a prolapsed uterus and misunderstood? That’s the only explanation. I know she doesn’t have one, so god only knows. 4. When she’s starting to lose an argument, she makes shit up. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/43 "2008-05-22T23:54:50Z")
I wonder, next time a female asks me to lift something heavy, should I say, “I hate to reinforce stereotypes, so I’ll have to decline.”? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/44 "2008-05-22T23:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=burundi] To be fair, men deal with those issues as well. Why, for example, do people assume that men who love hanging out with kids are creepy pervs? Saying that men shouldn’t like spending time with children is at least as destructive as saying that women shouldn’t go out for football. ETA: I don’t want to derail this into a discussion of which gender has it worse. I’m just saying that men face still face prejudice and discrimination when they want to do traditionally female things. [/QUOTE] Check out all those TV commercials that show dads comically incapable of taking care of the kids until Mom gets back from the mall! “When is your mother coming home?!” indeed! Also, it’s a damned shame that men have to worry about being too friendly to little girls, or children in general. I’d be incredibly offended if I were a guy. And my evil half-brother makes fun of his sons for doing things like playing house, or mimicking ballet dancers on TV, or letting their sister paint their fingernails. He’s not alone, I’m sure. However, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with “That isn’t ladylike” as long as you’re talking about flashing your drawers, not playing catch. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/45 "2008-05-23T02:20:41Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] I wonder, next time a female asks me to lift something heavy, should I say, “I hate to reinforce stereotypes, so I’ll have to decline.”? [/QUOTE] Oh come on, you know better than that. If someone asks you nicely for help, you are free to politely decline or politely help, whichever you prefer. It don’t matter if you’re a pointer or a setter. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/46 "2008-05-23T02:44:36Z")
I think I was the first, in the OP’s linked thread, to use ‘gentlemanly’. [QUOTE=me] Ladylike (and gentlemanly) behaviour is something children should aspire to. [/QUOTE] It was just to include both genders, rather than the emphasis being on girls who should be ladylike. As I said in that thread, I use “the rules of this house” rather than either term. When I was a kid and young adult I scoffed at being _lady_like, now I see the value of self respect and courtesy - just in time to be scoffed at by my own daughter. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/47 "2008-05-23T12:57:02Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] Oh come on, you know better than that. If someone asks you nicely for help, you are free to politely decline or politely help, whichever you prefer. It don’t matter if you’re a pointer or a setter. 😉 [/QUOTE] Aww, you never let me have any fun. With my luck she probably reply, “But if _I_ lift it, my lady parts will fall out!” Seriously, how do you reconcile equality with chivalry, e.g. men holding doors for women? Women want equal pay for equal work and I understand that completely. But a lot of women expect _some_ deferential treatment based on their gender, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/48 "2008-05-23T12:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=maggenpye] When I was a kid and young adult I scoffed at being _lady_like, now I see the value of self respect and courtesy - just in time to be scoffed at by my own daughter. [/QUOTE] When I complained about one of her decisions, my mom used to tell me, “Wait till _you_ have kids…you’ll see!” I never had kids, however, and am still basking in my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/49 "2008-05-23T14:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] Seriously, how do you reconcile equality with chivalry, e.g. men holding doors for women? Women want equal pay for equal work and I understand that completely. But a lot of women expect _some_ deferential treatment based on their gender, don’t they? [/QUOTE] Well… That’s kind of double-dipping, isn’t it? I agree with you, some cases of it can be infuriating. Let me see if I can form a coherent answer. The notion of chivalry seems antiquated to me. I personally don’t expect a male to automatically hold a door for me, walk on the outside of the sidewalk, etc. etc. He’s welcome to do those things, but I don’t expect it (or demand it like some females do). I think it more logical for any person to hold open a door for people following, or for a person who has their hands full. My motto is that ‘the laden vehicle has the right of way’. Also, I defer to anyone older than I am, in any situation such as going first in line (if possible). On the other hand, little actions of politeness or consideration are very much appreciated. So, while I don’t _expect_ the opening of doors, it can be a sweet gesture. People should try to be considerate of others no matter their gender. I wish that more people would operate this way. Hopefully I’ve been successful in raising my daughters without these “expectations”. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/50 "2008-05-23T14:16:48Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] Well… That’s kind of double-dipping, isn’t it? I agree with you, some cases of it can be infuriating. [/QUOTE] Double-dipping=? I don’t understand the term as it applies here. Some things might be quantifiable, like how much money each person spends on the relationship. But I guess my answer would be that the genders are not equal and can never be. After all, men can’t have babies. Therefore I’m only too happy to hold the door for you, lift the heavy stuff, etc. That idea may be antiquated (and so may I) but it feels like the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/51 "2008-05-23T14:26:07Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] Double-dipping=? I don’t understand the term as it applies here. Some things might be quantifiable, like how much money each person spends on the relationship. But I guess my answer would be that the genders are not equal and can never be. After all, men can’t have babies. Therefore I’m only too happy to hold the door for you, lift the heavy stuff, etc. That idea may be antiquated (and so may I) but it feels like the right thing to do. [/QUOTE] By double-dipping I mean: she wants to be treated equally in some areas yet not in others. Probably not a good term to use - it just popped in my head for some reason. Selective equality maybe? Politness is most always the right thing to do. Don’t sweat it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/52 "2008-05-23T14:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] By double-dipping I mean: she wants to be treated equally in some areas yet not in others. Probably not a good term to use - it just popped in my head for some reason. Selective equality maybe? Politness is most always the right thing to do. Don’t sweat it. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Ah, I see: you were agreeing (I read it as the opposite). I find myself resisting my politeness toward (date-able) women. It makes me come off as a schmuck, I’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/53 "2008-05-23T14:30:18Z")
Two unrelated observations. 1. People don’t usually consider _manly_ or _womanly_, _masculine_ or _feminine_, to be offensive or even sexist. Is it possible that being _ladies_ and _gentlemen_ nowadays is seen as not sexist, but _classist_? (Americans don’t like to talk about class. Many will point at race and even religion before admitting to class differences.) 2. As the culture now largely parses things: -a girl simply _becomes_ a woman with maturity, but being a lady is based on her conduct and social approval. -a boy does _not_ become a man with maturity, but based on his conduct and social approval. Becoming a gentleman is another step entirely. > [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I find myself resisting my politeness toward (date-able) women. It makes me come off as a schmuck, I’ve found. If I’m not totally out to lunch on point 2 above, it’s because women are conditioned to look first for a _man_, and only then for a gentleman. If so, putting out signs of the latter without first establishing that you are the former is probably queering _(ahem)_ your deal. ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/54 "2008-05-23T14:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] NO ONE tries to “restrict the actions” of girls/women in the US any more and to suggest otherwise is stupid. [/QUOTE] Um, hello? How about the military? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/55 "2008-05-23T14:47:10Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] I wonder, next time a female asks me to lift something heavy, should I say, “I hate to reinforce stereotypes, so I’ll have to decline.”? [/QUOTE] Not necessarily. But if you see a female carrying something heavy, you shouldn’t say “A little old girl like you isn’t strong enough to carry that. It’s not ladylike. Let a big strong man like myself do it.” At best say “Do you need some help with that?” A woman carrying a 20 pound package is viewed as unladylike, but it’s okay for her to carry a 40 pound child. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Litoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/56 "2008-05-23T14:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63] Ah, I see: you were agreeing (I read it as the opposite). I find myself resisting my politeness toward (date-able) women. It makes me come off as a schmuck, I’ve found. [/QUOTE] You’re going after the wrong women, then. When I was still single (and trust me, if I am ever single again) men lose dateability points for things like not opening the door for me, not holding my chair, sitting against the wall, etc. I admit freely that I am old-fashioned, but my daughter is 15 and has the same expectations. My 8 yo son is learning to be a gentleman and has been told that any woman that does not appreciate his manners is not worth his time. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/57 "2008-05-23T14:56:39Z")
[QUOTE=Litoris] You’re going after the wrong women, then. When I was still single (and trust me, if I am ever single again) men lose dateability points for things like not opening the door for me, not holding my chair, sitting against the wall, etc. I admit freely that I am old-fashioned, but my daughter is 15 and has the same expectations. My 8 yo son is learning to be a gentleman and has been told that any woman that does not appreciate his manners is not worth his time. Just sayin’… [/QUOTE] Sitting against the wall is an ungentlemanly thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/58 "2008-05-23T14:57:41Z")
[QUOTE=BetsQ] Um, hello? How about the military? [/QUOTE] When I see women demanding they be included in selective service and then someone telling them no, I’ll count it. ---
**Author:** ![Litoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@Litoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Litoris)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/59 "2008-05-23T15:28:40Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] Sitting against the wall is an ungentlemanly thing to do? [/QUOTE] Yes ma’am. Of course, keep in mind, this is according to proper etiquette and you may or may not decide to agree with it, your choice. When being seated against a wall, women should be seated where they can be seen. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266/60 "2008-05-23T15:44:44Z")
[QUOTE=Litoris] Yes ma’am. Of course, keep in mind, this is according to proper etiquette and you may or may not decide to agree with it, your choice. When being seated against a wall, women should be seated where they can be seen. [/QUOTE] You mean the man faces the wall, and the woman faces the room? Never heard of this one. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ladylike-gentlemanly-offensive/450266.md?page=4)