# Lake Mead at 36% of Capacity **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 17, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482 "2021-06-17T18:53:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/41 "2021-06-19T13:50:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Can’t you just dump it back in the ocean? You’ll make the dumping point hypersaline, which will kill most of the marine life at that location ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/42 "2021-06-19T13:55:03Z")
I think desalination is is part of the answer but it comes with its own list of problems that need to be solved. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/43 "2021-06-19T14:03:52Z")
[It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWMyWr9_CVo) ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/44 "2021-06-19T14:10:56Z")
Reintroduce the majority of it to water after the water has been waste treated, so that your waste water (which presumably flows into the ocean) is isotonic with ocean water? The remainder could be sequestered somewhere - there are lots of abandoned mines and the like that could be filled. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/45 "2021-06-19T14:15:07Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I figure I’ve got about 25-45 years left. Shit is definitely going to go to shit in my lifetime if my own self-projected lifespan is accurate. > [@JaneDoe42](#): > > The rough beast has stopped slouching and is now scrambling. It’s positively amazing how many people back in the 70s would have agreed with both of you. There was even an episode of _All in the Family_ where Mike and Gloria were discussing whether it would be right or ethical to start a family, and bring a child into the world. In other words: if you want to engage in Malthusian thinking, that’s your right–but please at least explain how “this time” is different from all the failed predictions of doom in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/46 "2021-06-19T14:17:00Z")
@keeganst94 Why salinate waste water? Waste water is much easier and cheaper to recover and reuse than desalination. That seems like a ‘perpetual motion’ solution. You won’t have a net gain of fresh water that way. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/47 "2021-06-19T14:22:28Z")
Agree completely. … If we could get the public past the “Ick” factor of drinking and washing with treated sewage water And if we could comprehensively avoid situations like Flint MI. Deliberately connecting the output end of the wastewater stream to the input end of the potable water stream places a LOT of burden on that wastewater system (both the mechanical / engineering parts and the human organizational / political / financial parts) to not screw that up. A tall order in the poorer or more ideologically primitive parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/48 "2021-06-19T14:26:25Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Agriculture was consuming pretty much their full allocation of water by 1950 and also using some of the then-unused part of the urban water allocation. Then post WWII suburbia and the advent of home air conditioning caused Los Angeles and Phoenix and Las Vegas and Denver and … . Meanwhile modern refrigerated transportation turned large parts of sunny but parched CA & AZ into the preeminent fruit / veg / nut supplier to the whole USA. This is one aspect of the situation I don’t understand. Knowing that the west is dry isn’t a new thing. Why did farmers start farming out in the desert, knowing this is the case? Even now, assuming some government assistance, wouldn’t they be better off letting their farms return to a wilderness state and instead growing their crops some place in Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, or some such place in the eastern US along the Mississippi River? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/49 "2021-06-19T14:44:12Z")
It’s all about profit. Good river bottom land in the East is expensive; desert in the West is cheap. The entire central California valley is desert-lite and always has been. Just like Nebraska is. When the government gives you effectively free water, the rest follows obviously. Now that this is becoming unsustainable, you’re asking folks to shut down farms, receive $0 for their now-useless land, go buy much more expensive land in the East, move all their equipment there, and then what? Most of the good ag land in the east was occupied a century or more ago. Now they’re going to be cutting down what little forest remains and leveling hills to create arable land there for new farms. Not an obvious recipe for success. Clearly there _is_ some amount of unused farmable land in the east. But not a California’s-worth. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/50 "2021-06-19T16:04:40Z")
Plus there’s the issue of how much sunlight each region gets. A place that is naturally wetter will of course have more days of rain and clouds. The desert rarely has such days, so the number of hours of sunlight available for plant growth are naturally greater. You wouldn’t think it would make that much difference, but I’m (inadvertently) conducting an experiment on just this issue. I’ve got two virtually identical vegetable garden raised beds in my front yard this year, with the only real difference being that one gets about 2 hours less direct sunlight per day due to it being closer to my large tree, which shades it for the last part of the day as compared to the other bed. The difference in the level of growth for the tomato plants, which were all bought and planted on the same day, is significant. Add that up over all the agriculture in California, and the difference would be a significant drop in overall production. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/51 "2021-06-19T17:10:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > 21 years into a drought and you’re still using the “fluctuating” line? OK. You’re wrong but I doubt I convince you of that. Temperature records falling left and right year after year but hey, it’s “fluctuation”. It is not denying climate change. It is getting hotter. However, climate change does not necessarily mean less rain. In fact in CA, there has been more rain: [ ### California rainfall is becoming greater, with heavier storms [https://ams.confex.com](https://ams.confex.com) › ams › pdfpapers ]([https://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/163828.pdf](https://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/163828.pdf)) _, A. Bui2_ _, W. C. Patzert3_ _Climate change studies have focused on_ _global and regional temperatures, particularly_ _warming trends over the last century (Hansen et al._ _2006; IPCC 2007). Precipitation trends at global_ _and regional scales are also important climatic_ _variables that may be influenced by warming. In_ _California, precipitation amounts vary considerably,_ _yet rainfall is vital to the state’s multi-billion dollar_ _agriculture industry, which produces 12% of the_ _nation’s total agricultural products (Mitchell and_ _Blier 1997). During frequent dry years, water_ _shortages can cripple agriculture and hydro-power,_ _and result in greatly reduced residential_ _consumption. In wet years flooding may also_ _create major disruptions._ _Several studies have looked at recent_ _trends in precipitation, both in the United States and_ _in California. , J. K. Willis3…Higgins et al_ _(2000, 2007) also found that daily precipitation_ _events have increased over much of the western_ _U.S. in the last five-decade period. This period of_ _increased precipitation corresponded to similar_ _increases in total annual amounts. Higgins et al_ _(2000, 2007) also found that the total of heavy_ _precipitation days increased substantially over_ _portions of the West during this period. These_ _increases in intensity of rainstorms are particularly_ _apparent in the summer for the U.S. in general_ _(New et al 2001). However, in the West, the largest_ _difference in the frequency of daily precipitation (\>1_ _mm) and in heavy precipitation totals in recent_ _decades occur in the JFM season (Higgins et al_ _2007). This seasonality nearly corresponds to the_ _peak of California’s annual precipitation, as the_ _winter months of December, January, and February_ _account for fifty percent of the states total_ _precipitation (Mitchell and Blier 1997). Similarly,_ _Peterson et al (2008) found heavy precipitation has_ _been increasing over the last half century,_ _\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, S. LaDochy4_ \*_, and P. Ramirez4_ - 1\* _University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 2_ _California Poly, Pomona 3_ _Jet Propulsion laboratory, NASA 4_ _California State University, Los Angeles_ **2017 had the second wettest year in recorded history in CA:** > **[California storms: This rainy season now ranks 2nd all time in 122 years of...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/06/california-storms-this-water-year-now-ranks-2nd-all-time-in-122-years-of-records/)** > > Between October 2016 and March 2017, California averaged 30.75 inches of precipitation, the second-highest average since such records began being kept in 1895. Not 21 years of drought. And you had to see this part of my post :_Now, the temp is going up, and that does mean more evaporation and water use._ because you quoted it. I do not know how you then decide I am a global warming denier. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/52 "2021-06-19T17:11:31Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Either that or desalination of the Pacific and building the infrastructure that goes with it. Desalination is a horrible idea. Just treat wastewater. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Why salinate waste water? Waste water is much easier and cheaper to recover and reuse than desalination. That seems like a ‘perpetual motion’ solution. You won’t have a net gain of fresh water that way. Right. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/53 "2021-06-19T17:18:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Desalination is a horrible idea. Just treat wastewater. I think in order to keep up with demands, we will need to do both. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/54 "2021-06-19T19:36:35Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > This is one aspect of the situation I don’t understand. Knowing that the west is dry isn’t a new thing. Why did farmers start farming out in the desert, knowing this is the case? Even now, assuming some government assistance, wouldn’t they be better off letting their farms return to a wilderness state and instead growing their crops some place in Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, or some such place in the eastern US along the Mississippi River? My take on it: Initially, land in the desert was cheap because it was “worthless” unless there was a mine on it/under it. Desert areas lack water but they have LOTS of sunshine, which plants also need to grow. By using irrigation water it could be applied a controlled manner which pretty much eliminated the risk of disastrous floods, which are a feature of farming near a big river like the Mississippi. (People who farm near such rivers gain the benefit of silt deposits from those floods, which makes the in-between years a good living (or, in the case of a place like the Nile with annual floods, you get used to the rhythm of the typical flood). Build your home/other structures on silts above most flood levels and you get adapt, but there’s always risks, just like any other farming. And a lot of other people got to those riverside sites first). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/55 "2021-06-19T19:41:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **2017 had the second wettest year in recorded history in CA:** > _:::: snip ::::_ > > Between October 2016 and March 2017, California averaged 30.75 inches of precipitation, the second-highest average since such records began being kept in 1895. > > Not 21 years of drought. > > And you had to see this part of my post : _Now, the temp is going up, and that does mean more evaporation and water use._ because you quoted it. I do not know how you then decide I am a global warming denier. 🙄 Well, California as a whole might have had a wet year but the territory upstream of Hoover Dam has not. There’s also the problem that while there might be more rain there is less snowpack in the mountains, and that is contributing to water supply issues. Rain flows downward rapidly to the sea (if it can get that far before humans snatch it). Snowpack stays put for awhile and releases water more slowly, over time, which has some advantages from the human perspective. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/56 "2021-06-19T19:43:16Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > In other words: > if you want to engage in Malthusian thinking, that’s your right–but please at least explain how “this time” is different from all the failed predictions of doom in the past. “This time” is not different. What is happening now is the result of ignoring all the warnings in the past. I am in my 60’s and have known about global warming since 7th grade. We are told over and over and over that if we don’t get our act together that bad things were going to start happening. Bad things have started happening and I don’t think they will stop. BTW, I thought that Mike and Gloria made the wrong decision. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/57 "2021-06-19T20:07:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The climate change has not been a big effect on rainfall in CA. It fluctuates. _It has always fluctuated._ Unfortunately no - climate change has had an outsized effect on rainfall in CA. The issue isn’t total rainfall averaged out over a decade or two. That might very well equalize. The real issue is periodicity and warming winters. CA as you know has always been a single season rain state. We get 95+% of our rainfall in a single rainy season in the late fall to early spring, with traditionally a heavy concentration in the dead of winter, December through February. What has happened with climate change is that that window has narrowed - the tails of the rainy season have drastically shrunk in terms of volume and the meat of the season has become more intense. That means the key months have become far more feast or famine - either more massive storms with widespread flooding and mudslides or you miss like this year and get severe drought. And reducing the tails has greatly expanded the fire season. In addition steadily warming winters, springs and summers are prematurely depleting and not replenishing the Sierra snowpack at the rate it used to. Snow is falling at higher elevations, less of it as a percentage of the precipitation that falls and is melting sooner. As much of the CA water supply is predicated on the Spring melt (depending on where you draw your water, Marin county for example is 100% rainfall based) this has caused increasing stress on just about every facet of CA water use and the environment. Drought-ravaged CA ironically may be far more vulnerable to a massive [ARkStorm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARkStorm) than it ever has been in the recent past, simply because the rainy season has become so much more concentrated. CA has always been feast or famine when it comes to water, but climate change has made it far more intensely so than it has been in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/58 "2021-06-19T20:20:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s also the problem that while there might be more rain there is less snowpack in the mountains, and that is contributing to water supply issues. Rain flows downward rapidly to the sea (if it can get that far before humans snatch it). Snowpack stays put for awhile and releases water more slowly, over time, which has some advantages from the human perspective. That is also a potential problem in Quebec. Although all our electric power is hydro-electric from the north, it all depends on how much snow the winter brings. Although all that extra evaporation has to go somewhere. As of now we have no problems for either water or power, but who knows what the future will bring. This spring (which ends in about 30 hours) has been quite dry and unusually warm. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/59 "2021-06-19T21:07:12Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > “This time” is not different. What is happening now is the result of ignoring all the warnings in the past. I am in my 60’s and have known about global warming since 7th grade. We are told over and over and over that if we don’t get our act together that bad things were going to start happening. Bad things have started happening and I don’t think they will stop. It’s a bit like having had two heart attacks, and when someone says that you should eat healthier, you demand to know how “this time” is different from all the other times that people told you that your diet was going to end up killing you. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482/60 "2021-06-19T22:07:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And we know now he was very wrong. We need carbon free power. > > Not to mention, doing a few thousand $ of damage does not do anything in the big scheme. It is just low level eco-terrorism Building GC Dam was high level ecoterrorism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lake-mead-at-36-of-capacity/944482.md?page=4)