# "Lakes" on Europa near the surface **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342 "2011-11-18T14:46:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/21 "2011-11-18T22:45:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is Europa locked with Jupiter, always showing it the same side? I’d be quite surprised if it was not. If it is, then I don’t think tidal friction would be a factor. Yes it is. Wikipedia says Europa’s rotation is synchronous with its orbit around Jupiter. Tides wouldn’t occur on Europa, to speak of. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/22 "2011-11-18T22:46:11Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > It’s possible to have tidal heating even if the world is tidally locked. If the orbit is elliptical, the amount of tidal force on the world will vary as it goes around the orbit, and it will become more and less egg-shaped. Might not be as much tidal heating as if it weren’t tidally locked, but there can be some. I stand corrected on a finer point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/23 "2011-11-19T00:05:42Z")
> [@David42](#): > > It’s a reasonable idea that Europa was once warmer than it is now . . . Why? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/24 "2011-11-19T00:07:58Z")
Is there any other way for a robotic mission to figure out if there’s a subsurface ocean or its characteristics except drilling/melting through the ice? For example, would it be possible to send a soundwave through the mantle by setting off a nuke or crashing something big into it very fast while having some sort of receiving station on the other side? Isn’t examining sounds traveling through the earth’s interior how we know so much about what’s inside the earth? ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/25 "2011-11-19T00:08:02Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Yes it is. Wikipedia says Europa’s rotation is synchronous with its orbit around Jupiter. Tides wouldn’t occur on Europa, to speak of. The Jupiter system isn’t like the Earth - Moon system. Jupiter has 4 great moons which tidally affect one another. Io is the most active volcanic body in the solar system and is entirely heated through tidal forces caused by Jupiter and the other moons. This website has a great description: [http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal\_heating.html](http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heating.html) > [@](#): > > If Io were Jupiter’s only moon, it would not be subject to internal stresses. But there are other moons nearby which exert a gravitational pull of their own. Io’s volcanic activity is caused by the powerful force of Jupiter’s gravity, coupled with the gravitational pull of Io’s neighboring moons–Europa, Callisto, and Ganymede. Jupiter pulls Io inward toward itself, while the gravity of the outer moons pull it in the opposite direction. These opposing forces cause the distance between Io and Jupiter to vary, making Io’s orbit slightly elliptical. As a result, Io is subjected to tremendous tidal forces that alternately squeeze and stretch its interior. Europa would also be exposed to these same forces though weaker. This is the reason scientists are so excited about a liquid ocean on Europa, and where there’s water there’s good chance there’s life. If there is life on Europa it would be our duty to study it, but to do so in a way we don’t contaminate the ecosystem with our own parasites. Mainly we want to have as long as possible to study pristine alien life in its native environment. Of all the planets in the solar system, Europa (a moon I know) is the one I’m most excited about visiting. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/26 "2011-11-19T00:39:08Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > If there is life on Europa it would be our duty to study it, but to do so in a way we don’t contaminate the ecosystem with our own parasites. Mainly we want to have as long as possible to study pristine alien life in its native environment. Of all the planets in the solar system, Europa (a moon I know) is the one I’m most excited about visiting. Europa is the most fun because one can let the imagination go wild with ideas like an ocean full of large, ferocious, blind critters or even something crazy like a civilization of echolocating dolphin people. But we may have to settle for Enceladus. And hey, Mars could still have some germs clinging to subsurface ice somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/27 "2011-11-19T03:59:55Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Europa is the most fun because one can let the imagination go wild with ideas like an ocean full of large, ferocious, blind critters or even something crazy like a civilization of echolocating dolphin people. But we may have to settle for Enceladus. And hey, Mars could still have some germs clinging to subsurface ice somewhere… Exactly! Mars was once very similar to Earth with a thick, warm atmosphere and oceans. Life that formed there would have been analogous to life on Earth so if any life still exists it will be a window to the earliest life here. But Europa has an ocean that likely has existed for billions of years with volcanic vents keeping things nice and warm. If there is life there it could very well have evolved to a multi-cellular level which would be, to quote Spock, fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/28 "2011-11-19T12:25:09Z")
So correct me If I’m wrong, but this is much _more_ a problem of finances rather than capabilities? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/29 "2011-11-19T13:02:24Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > So correct me If I’m wrong, but this is much _more_ a problem of finances rather than capabilities? The mass of the probe is a huge issue. You’re going to need a very massive probe to get through the ice because it’s going to have to carry 100+ km of cable, and land safely with it, plus no one has tested such a device. Plus there’s question of using an autonomous explorer or a tethered one. The latter has been tested but is vastly more massive; I don’t think the former has. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/30 "2011-11-19T13:19:30Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The Jupiter system isn’t like the Earth - Moon system. Jupiter has 4 great moons which tidally affect one another. Io is the most active volcanic body in the solar system and is entirely heated through tidal forces caused by Jupiter and the other moons. This website has a great description: [http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal\_heating.html](http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heating.html) > > Europa would also be exposed to these same forces though weaker. This is the reason scientists are so excited about a liquid ocean on Europa, and where there’s water there’s good chance there’s life. > > If there is life on Europa it would be our duty to study it, but to do so in a way we don’t contaminate the ecosystem with our own parasites. Mainly we want to have as long as possible to study pristine alien life in its native environment. Of all the planets in the solar system, Europa (a moon I know) is the one I’m most excited about visiting. Thanks, Frazzled. That explanation I can buy. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/31 "2011-11-19T13:41:27Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Europa is the most fun because one can let the imagination go wild with ideas like an ocean full of large, ferocious, blind critters or even something crazy like a civilization of echolocating dolphin people. HAHAHAHA! I’ve been laughing at Echolocating Dolphin People for over an hour! Thank you. (Band Name!!!) And imagination on this is huge. But on the real aspect, if we could find just one little algae, frozen, dead or alive, even that would be AWESOME! If the algae looked and talked like Sheldon Plankton, we could have a live actor on Spongebob! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/32 "2011-11-19T14:16:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? The contraction of its formation would have heated it. This heat takes a while to dissipate. Europa’s core is prbably cold now, but it was most likely once radiating heat. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/33 "2011-11-19T14:17:35Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The Jupiter system isn’t like the Earth - Moon system. Jupiter has 4 great moons which tidally affect one another. Io is the most active volcanic body in the solar system and is entirely heated through tidal forces caused by Jupiter and the other moons. This website has a great description: [http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal\_heating.html](http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heating.html) > > Europa would also be exposed to these same forces though weaker. This is the reason scientists are so excited about a liquid ocean on Europa, and where there’s water there’s good chance there’s life. > > If there is life on Europa it would be our duty to study it, but to do so in a way we don’t contaminate the ecosystem with our own parasites. Mainly we want to have as long as possible to study pristine alien life in its native environment. Of all the planets in the solar system, Europa (a moon I know) is the one I’m most excited about visiting. I stand corrected again. I was considering only Europa and Jupiter. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/34 "2011-11-19T14:36:31Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Europa’s core is prbably cold now, but it was most likely once radiating heat. If the core is rocky, it likely still does, from radioactive decay. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/35 "2011-11-19T18:15:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > If the core is rocky, it likely still does, from radioactive decay. I’d say the concensus is a metallic core, so yes, there is a probability that Europa still has some heat coming from the core for this reason. However, it is likely that it is very little. It is a fortunate matter, period, for the purposes of finding ET life, that Europa is not warmer. If it was warm enough to have water vapor, instead of ice, it most likely would have lost that water vapor long ago, being too small to retain much atmosphere. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/36 "2011-11-19T18:21:32Z")
Wouldn’t Jupiters tidal forces cause ice quakes, making the ice less a solid lump to get through ? I suspect religious fundamentalists of all religions wouldn’t be happy about the discovery of even microscopic life on another world, judging by the multifarious arguments aginst space exploration that they come up with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/37 "2011-11-20T20:19:49Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I suspect religious fundamentalists of all religions wouldn’t be happy about the discovery of even microscopic life on another world, judging by the multifarious arguments aginst space exploration that they come up with. That happens a lot in Ben Bova’s [_Grand Tour_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_(novel_series)) series (the New Morality playing the role of anti-science _bete noir),_ but I never heard a RL fundamentalist argue against space travel as impious or anything. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/38 "2011-11-20T20:27:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That happens a lot in Ben Bova’s [_Grand Tour_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_(novel_series)) series (the New Morality playing the role of anti-science _bete noir),_ but I never heard a RL fundamentalist argue against space travel as impious or anything. Have you? What’s RL fundamentalist? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/39 "2011-11-20T21:13:23Z")
> [@David42](#): > > What’s RL fundamentalist? Real life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342/40 "2011-11-21T04:48:07Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > If there is life on Europa it would be our duty to study it, but to do so in a way we don’t contaminate the ecosystem with our own parasites. 😕 But then how can we eat, fuck, enslave, or otherwise exploit it? Look, we have to make an ethical choice here that will influence future courses of history. And I say it will be more fun to live in the Bearded-Spock Future. Long Live the Terran Empire! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lakes-on-europa-near-the-surface/603342.md?page=1)