# Lance Armstrong cleared. Can they finally leave him alone? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 4, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768 "2012-02-04T17:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/21 "2012-02-06T11:31:09Z")
In related news, you can add Alberto Contador to the list of guys who are not X **Busy Scissors**. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/06/alberto-contador-ban-tour-cycling](http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/06/alberto-contador-ban-tour-cycling) Andy Schleck _might_ be clean. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/22 "2012-02-06T11:40:18Z")
Just seen that **Cumbrian** - big news! I thought the wee man had gotten away with it tbh. Andy Schleck retroactively wins the Tour. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/23 "2012-02-06T13:04:40Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Who is X again? You’ve got Cadel who is probably the best candidate for a clean winner and that’s it. Maybe ever. You know something about Sastre that I don’t? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/24 "2012-02-06T16:57:18Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > There is actually plenty of direct testimony against Armstrong. It’s not all hearsay. Saying otherwise is just factually incorrect. Much of the direct evidence is from people who could be regarded as unreliable or biased. I suspect this may be a reason behind the investigation being stopped. That doesn’t mean the testimony is false. The breadth of it suggests the contrary, even if there isn’t the killer evidence needed to take LA on. Unreliable and biased statements, no matter how many there are, do not somehow add up to proving any form of truth. If that were the case, then Glen Beck really did rape that girl back when, since I can get several people to say he did just to get him convicted. Bad witnesses are not just bad because they can’t go to trial, but because, get this, they aren’t convincing evidence. The face remains that there is no actual condemning evidence, and thus assuming the guy cheated means you are willing to assume lots of other people cheated. And, if everyone else cheated to, then how was it unfair? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/25 "2012-02-06T17:41:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, if everyone else cheated to, then how was it unfair? It isn’t, and I for one don’t think Armstrong’s wins need an asterisk even though I think he was most likely doping. Dope or no dope, he was clearly the best rider of the decade by a large margin. I’ll never be an Armstrong fan because I found his wins to be unexciting, achieved by executing a boring, technical strategy to perfection. Win the TT, good TTT, don’t let anyone get away in the mountains. Perhaps make an opportunistic attack here or there, but nothing daring. Meh. Where was the drama we saw in last year’s 18th and 19th stages in the Armstrong years? But there’s no denying he was the best. That “don’t let anyone get away in the mountains” is easy to say and very, very difficult to accomplish. I wouldn’t give him greatest of all time status, maybe not even second, because of his exclusive focus on the Tour as compared to the breadth of accomplishments of Merckxx and the like, but he’s in the discussion even if he did dope. So I don’t really think it’s a big deal if he was cheating. But if you believe that he was, then his self-righteousness on the issue is really grating. Mind you, if he really was clean, then it’s totally justified. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/26 "2012-02-06T17:45:17Z")
In other news, Andy takes the high road wrt news of Bertie’s suspension: “[There is no reason to be happy now…I battled with Contador in that race and I lost…If I succeed this year I will consider it my first Tour victory.](http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/06022012/58/tour-de-france-schleck-upset-contator-ban.html)” ---
**Author:** ![Saitou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Saitou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saitou)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/27 "2012-02-06T17:58:33Z")
In the previous thread I said: > [@](#): > > I think he doped, like his main competitor’s. It has nothing to do with him Armstrong personally, it’s just that too many of them have come clean after the fact/have turned out to be liars. Maybe it’s not fair but if you lie down with dogs… However I’m not always sure it diminishes their accomplishments, performance enhancing drugs are not miracle drugs. You could dope me up all you want but I still wouldn’t be able to clear the first mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/28 "2012-02-06T23:11:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Unreliable and biased statements, no matter how many there are, do not somehow add up to proving any form of truth. If that were the case, then Glen Beck really did rape that girl back when, since I can get several people to say he did just to get him convicted. Unless you recognise degrees of plausibility, by your Glen Beck method, nothing can be proven by any testimony. There have been any number of witnesses who have come forward to say they saw LA doping. Some, like Landis, seem to be a bit hare brained. Many less so and with less motive to lie. There are plenty of people who have been convicted on the evidence of other criminals. You can’t discount other doping riders and their testimony so easily. Many people when discussing this topic confuse, or at least don’t explicitly distinguish between, the question of whether - one cycling fan to another - one thinks LA probably doped and the question of whether he should suffer any legal sanction. The standards of proof are very different. I think LA doped. It seems highly probable. I don’t think he should suffer any sanction unless he is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have done so, and so far as I know there isn’t evidence to that standard. Bear in mind that despite the highly inaccurate title to this OP, and the inaccurate impression given by the CNN story linked, the Justice Department investigation which just concluded neither “cleared” LA of doping nor was even concentrating on whether LA doped. It was a fraud investigation. Fraud is a very difficult thing to prove, and it involves proving far more than whether LA merely doped. [The USADA has said](http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-still-investigating-doping-allegations-against-armstrong) that it continues to investigate whether LA doped, and will be examining with interest the evidence that the Justice Department obtained, though it seems that much of that will not be available to the USADA. > [@](#): > > The face remains that there is no actual condemning evidence, and thus assuming the guy cheated means you are willing to assume lots of other people cheated. And, if everyone else cheated to, then how was it unfair? I said it was, when exactly? ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/29 "2012-02-06T23:21:44Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > **He couldn’t have been that good!** So if a breakthrough megastar emerges and blows the doors off of everyone, it automatically means he’s a cheat? Yeah, I’m familiar with this brand of pathetic snivelling, and it has exactly as much credence on YouTube as it does in sports. Is Tiger Woods a complete fraud? \*\* Wayne Gretzky?\*\* Roger Federer? Michael Phelps? Tony Hawk? John Elway? Hakuho? Hey, Ronnie O’Sullivan got a maximum break in a little over 4 1/2 minutes, he _had_ to be on something! So I’m guessing we no longer suspect him for the blood doping my gym teacher used to rag on about? I honestly don’t know/care, but I thought the verdict was out on the Great One. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/30 "2012-02-06T23:26:23Z")
How do we know he’s even legally eligible to represent the U.S.A.? I want to see his birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/31 "2012-02-06T23:35:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > He’s pissed in more cups in the past ten years than all the other bicyclists combined. They were testing this guy constantly when he came out of retirement. He’s never failed a urine test. The only problem with this is, the response will be along the lines of, “Refresh my memory: how many urine tests did Marion Jones fail?” Then again, the problem works both ways; if there is any of Lance’s blood/urine left over from those tests, and some day they test it and discover something that wasn’t on the banned list at the time but has since been discovered to be a masking agent, he would end up with “an asterisk” even if there was no known drug at the time that could have been masked by whatever they found. > [@BigT](#): > > And, if everyone else cheated to, then how was it unfair? It stops being a competition about who is the best athlete and becomes a competition of who has access to the best drug laboratory. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/32 "2012-02-07T01:32:37Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Then again, the problem works both ways; if there is any of Lance’s blood/urine left over from those tests, and some day they test it and discover something that wasn’t on the banned list at the time but has since been discovered to be a masking agent, he would end up with “an asterisk” even if there was no known drug at the time that could have been masked by whatever they found. As I’ve said, there was no test for EPO at the time when LA is accused of using it. It’s not a matter of masking agents. There just wasn’t an available test. LA has done such a good job of saying over and over that he didn’t fail tests that people have trouble accepting that the unstated assumption (that there was an effective test) is complete bullshit. Samples said to be those of LA from the 1999 tour were tested in 2005, after a test for EPO had been developed, and were found positive for EPO. Wikipedia has a reasonable treatment of the subject. There is much kerfuffle about procedures and privacy and identification, all of which are sufficient to make it impossible to say what the truth is beyond a reasonable doubt. However, IMHO the probability is that the samples were what the lab said they were (LA’s) and the reason they tested positive for synthetic EPO is because LA was using synthetic EPO. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/33 "2012-02-07T01:49:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, if everyone else cheated to, then how was it unfair? Everyone didnt. Someone didnt make the cut, or lost a trial, or was way at the back with a lot less dollars. We just never hear about them, once a sport has too many cheats, it just becomes ‘everybody’ and they get forgotten. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/34 "2012-02-07T17:17:46Z")
[Lance apparently bang to rights but case closed - evidently has the US attorney in his back pocket](http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/concerns-over-closure-of-federal-investigation-into-armstrong-and-us-postal) [Warning, link to weak-ass conspiracy theory content] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/35 "2012-02-07T17:37:43Z")
As we can see from the Barry Bonds case and others, these kinds of allegations are very hard to prove, especially years and years after the fact. The argument that the government shouldn’t bother spending this much time and effort on cases like this is a lot stronger than the argument Bonds and Armstrong didn’t do anything, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/36 "2012-02-12T18:22:09Z")
I want to believe Lance Armstrong never doped. I really really want to… ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/37 "2012-06-13T22:29:51Z")
Seems like an appropriate thread: [US Anti-Doping Agency charges Armstrong](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-faces-fresh-doping-charges-from-usada/2012/06/13) FTA: > [@](#): > > In the 15-page charging letter obtained by The Post, USADA made previously unpublicized allegations against Armstrong, alleging it collected blood samples from Armstrong in 2009 and 2010 that were “fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.” Armstrong has never tested positive… > > USADA’s letter, dated June 12, alleges that Armstrong and five former cycling team associates — three doctors including Italian physician Michele Ferrari, one trainer and team manager Johan Bruyneel— engaged in a massive doping conspiracy from 1998 to 2011, and that “the witnesses to the conduct described in this letter include more than ten (10) cyclists . . .” > > All of the six, including trainer Jose Pepi Marti of Switzerland and doctors Pedro Celaya of Luxembourg and Luis Garcia del Moral of Spain, face competition bans. USADA put all of the alleged violations in one letter, it stated, because it considers the six defendents part of a “long running doping conspiracy.” > > The letter specifically alleges that “multiple riders with firsthand knowledge” will testify that Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and masking agents, and that he distributed and administered drugs to other cyclists from 1998 to 2005. The letter alleges that numerous witnesses will testify that Armstrong also used human growth hormone before 1996. You’d have thought the U.S. Attorney’s office, after two years of investigating, would have issued an indictment if there was actual fire to go with the smoke, but perhaps different standards of proof are coming into play? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/38 "2012-06-13T22:41:10Z")
Your link isn’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/39 "2012-06-13T22:45:53Z")
Aargh! Serves me right for linking to the Post. Try [this one](http://www.washingtonpost.com/lance-armstrong-faces-fresh-doping-charges-from-usada/2012/06/13/gJQAefnPaV_story.html?). And if that doesn’t work—I tried loading it in preview and it pulled up a registration request—here’s the[Houston Chronicle’s version](http://www.chron.com/sports/article/US-Anti-Doping-Agency-charges-Armstrong-3631708.php) of the story. I suppose you could just Google for WaPo stories with Lance Armstrong, filed in the last four hours. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/40 "2012-06-13T22:49:05Z")
How could Lance have been cleared in February and then charged in June? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768.md?page=3)