# Lance Armstrong cleared. Can they finally leave him alone? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 4, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768 "2012-02-04T17:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/61 "2012-06-14T14:34:54Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Just let them dope, who cares. I agree. If consenting, informed adults want to accept health risks in return for improved athletic performance, so be it. And if non-dopers can’t compete, well - every profession has barriers to entry. I don’t see why anyone gives a damn about this. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/62 "2012-06-14T19:06:34Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > No you are conflating two things. The incident **theR** relates is separate from the back-testing of LA’s in competition samples by a lab in 2005 which found EPO. > > Whether LA is lying if he says he’s never tested positive is a debateable point. He would no doubt say that he is referring to a “positive” test in the sense of a test that is found “positive” in a manner sufficient to trigger legal sanction. > > There is no doubt however that if LA is not lying he is being deliberately misleading. He knows that it is substantially meaningless that he has never tested positive, because he knows that there were no available effective tests for the doping methods he is widely accused of using, at the time he is accused of using them. He also knows that most people who don’t follow the issue don’t know this, and that they assume that it means something that LA has not failed tests. It means _nothing_ except that he wasn’t silly enough to use testable doping methods. His public relations strategy is to very cynically pull the wool over the eyes of people who don’t know enough to know they are being deliberately mislead. So in short he answers the question “Have you ever cheated?” with “I’ve never been caught cheating.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/63 "2012-06-14T19:29:57Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > So in short he answers the question “Have you ever cheated?” with “I’ve never been caught cheating.” Actually, he answers “No, and despite decades of testing there have been no positive results to support the allegations.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/64 "2012-06-15T02:03:25Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > So in short he answers the question “Have you ever cheated?” with “I’ve never been caught cheating.” No it’s worse than that. He answers the question with “Here is a piece of misleading noise that you think sounds like evidence but which I know means nothing. Lap it up, ignorant suckers!” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/65 "2012-06-15T02:22:15Z")
And I should add that LA’s strategy works. Every time we have one of these discussions people come out with comments like **Airman’s** above that LA is “demonstrably clean”. People either don’t know or just refuse to acknowledge or cannot get their heads around the fact that there were no relevant tests at the relevant time. It’s the NCIS effect: people just assume that People in White Coats are all knowing and have a test for everything and that if LA has Been Tested[sup]TM[/sup] then that’s a complete answer. Anyone who follows cycling closely knows that is complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/66 "2012-06-15T05:40:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > People either don’t know or just refuse to acknowledge or cannot get their heads around the fact that there were no relevant tests at the relevant time. The EPO test came into use in 2001, if I understand correctly? And Armstrong won the Tour each year through 2005. Was he not tested in the overlapping years? Did they only test a random sample of riders each year? I don’t know what the procedures were. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/67 "2012-06-15T05:59:09Z")
Once the EPO test came into use, blatant EPO use stopped except amongst dummies (who were then usually caught). After that the peloton largely moved to blood transfusions. For which there was no test and still isn’t, as such. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/68 "2012-06-15T06:05:47Z")
Sorry I should have said “autologous” blood transfusions. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/69 "2012-06-15T17:00:44Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Once the EPO test came into use, blatant EPO use stopped except amongst dummies (who were then usually caught). After that the peloton largely moved to blood transfusions. For which there was no test and still isn’t, as such. Well, maybe this is what you meant by “blatant EPO use stopped” but really they just changed methods and also used new varieties of EPO. EPO is out of the system relatively quickly so they could still get away with it in training as long as random testing didn’t get them, and they also changed to microdosing so it would be clear out of their system overnight. Isn’t autologous blood transfusion usually used in combination with EPO or other drugs? (They wait until the EPO is cleared then get the blood for later transfusion). In Armstrong’s case there is a lot of evidence that he was warned prior to any “random” tests. I’m not sure when, but I believe at some point in those years the out of season testing wasn’t actually random, either, but scheduled. I’d have to check on the latter. Cyclists were also getting away with using different versions of EPO, as seen when the Mayo got busted in 2007 and there were also several positives in 2009 for a variety that hadn’t been caught previously. Through this whole period, there were still plenty of ways to beat the EPO tests. Most often the positives were from riders that screwed up the doping protocols designed to beat the tests. Wasn’t there also a new test in the past few years? Was that the one that resulted in the burst of positives in 2009? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/70 "2012-06-15T17:21:10Z")
[CERA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_Erythropoiesis_Receptor_Activator) was a variation of EPO that caught out a series of guys in the 2008 Tour, Stefan Schumacher, Riccardo Riccò, Leonardo Piepoli, Bernhard Kohl. I’m guessing that’s probably what **theR** is remembering. Also remember a team getting busted in customs for having some doping drugs in the possession of a team soigneur. Was thinking this was the Saunier Duval team in 2008, but apparently I’m confusing this incident with something else. CERA was supposed to be not processed by the kidneys thus users could escape the piss test. Also of note, 2008 was the race that Armstrong watched from his couch and decided he could still beat those schlubs… ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/71 "2012-06-15T21:59:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sorry I should have said “autologous” blood transfusions. Thanks for clearing that up. I actually pictured a tight-packed mass of bicyclists racing up the Champs-Élysées, all connected to IVs with blood packs on poles attached to their seats. 😕 Your update makes it make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/72 "2012-06-15T22:45:19Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Can I, rather egotistically, ask that those who decide to post in this revitalised thread don’t just start reading from about here and go back and read the page including, in particular, my posts? > > Because this thread contains so much BS it just isn’t funny. The title for a start is dead wrong. > > There are many people (primarily, let’s face it, Americans) who don’t follow cycling, don’t know anything about 99.9% of the history of doping in the European tour, have no clue about the technical details of doping and testing, and frankly just don’t have anything close to the full picture but who are prepared to opine on LA because he’s the one guy they’ve heard of (because he’s American). > > And consequently in the eyes of someone who does actually follow the European tour avidly, you just end up sounding silly. Amen. Very well said. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/73 "2012-06-15T23:01:54Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > Just let them dope, who cares. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I agree. If consenting, informed adults want to accept health risks in return for improved athletic performance, so be it. And if non-dopers can’t compete, well - every profession has barriers to entry. I don’t see why anyone gives a damn about this. I give a damn because I think the playing field should be a level test of skill, and the winner should be the product of ability and effort. How could anyone have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/74 "2012-06-16T00:26:36Z")
Well, the _cyclists_ seem to have a problem with that, so I don’t know what to tell you. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/75 "2012-06-16T00:41:24Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, the _cyclists_ seem to have a problem with that, so I don’t know what to tell you. No, only the complete assholes, including some but hopefully not all cyclists, are the ones who have a problem. And if you don’t know what to tell me then how about if next time you don’t tell me anything. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/76 "2012-06-16T02:11:19Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > I give a damn because I think the playing field should be a level test of skill, > and the winner should be the product of ability and effort. > > How could anyone have a problem with that? I happen to think that individual athletic events should be a showcase for the absolute capabilities of human beings, and since there clearly is room for humans to advance their performance I’m all for it. The ability and the effort is still there, even with steroids. I could juice all day every day and nothing that I do will ever put me within 50% of their performance. The only caveat I have is that they are totally, completely, 100% informed of the consequences so they can’t turn around and say that they didn’t know. Once that’s done I say have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/77 "2012-06-16T03:41:14Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Well, maybe this is what you meant by “blatant EPO use stopped” but really they just changed methods and also used new varieties of EPO. EPO is out of the system relatively quickly so they could still get away with it in training as long as random testing didn’t get them, and they also changed to microdosing so it would be clear out of their system overnight. Isn’t autologous blood transfusion usually used in combination with EPO or other drugs? (They wait until the EPO is cleared then get the blood for later transfusion). > > In Armstrong’s case there is a lot of evidence that he was warned prior to any “random” tests. I’m not sure when, but I believe at some point in those years the out of season testing wasn’t actually random, either, but scheduled. I’d have to check on the latter. > > Cyclists were also getting away with using different versions of EPO, as seen when the Mayo got busted in 2007 and there were also several positives in 2009 for a variety that hadn’t been caught previously. > > Through this whole period, there were still plenty of ways to beat the EPO tests. Most often the positives were from riders that screwed up the doping protocols designed to beat the tests. > > Wasn’t there also a new test in the past few years? Was that the one that resulted in the burst of positives in 2009? As \*\*fiddlesticks \*\*said you are probably thinking of CERA. Several got caught because they thought that CERA - being a new variant of EPO - was undetectable. Unbeknown to them, the drug company in question developed a test for the new drug but deliberately didn’t publicise the fact. Oops. And yes, I agree that there are various methods - such as microdosing and avoiding testing at inconvenient times - that the peloton, including LA, could and probably were using to continue using EPO (or variants) even after a test for EPO was developed. However, I’m trying to keep it simple to permit people to understand. Even if a rider wasn’t using these more risky and complex methods, the simplest point is that prior to about 2001 one could use EPO and before and since then use autologous blood tranfusions without any chance of failing a test. ---
**Author:** ![IveKilledPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@IveKilledPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IveKilledPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/78 "2012-06-17T18:35:00Z")
Can’t wait until he’s finally discredited for good ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/79 "2012-06-18T15:13:44Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I happen to think that individual athletic events should be a showcase for the absolute capabilities of human beings, and since there clearly is room for humans to advance their performance I’m all for it. The ability and the effort is still there, even with steroids. I could juice all day every day and nothing that I do will ever put me within 50% of their performance. > > The only caveat I have is that they are totally, completely, 100% informed of the consequences so they can’t turn around and say that they didn’t know. Once that’s done I say have at it. HUH?? So those who choose to not dope should be at a grievous disadvantage because they choose to go at it the legal/rule way? Steelers fan aren’t you? Doesn’t the fact that your entire offensive line from the 70’s is pretty much dead bother you much? Individuals have a right to make their own decision.. but this is a sport.. their are rules. LA can’t attach a jet pack to his bike. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768/80 "2012-06-18T23:28:43Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > HUH?? So those who choose to not dope should be at a grievous disadvantage because they choose to go at it the legal/rule way? I think that **Airman** is proposing a different competition in which doping is legal. At least I hope that’s what he’s saying. I don’t think he’s saying people should be able to dope in a competition where doping is illegal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lance-armstrong-cleared-can-they-finally-leave-him-alone/611768.md?page=5)